K.N. Rao Interview:
The Necessity for Research in Astrology
Conversations
with the founder of the largest
astrological research institution in the world.
Interviewed by Vaughn Paul Manley, M.A.
October 19, 2009
New Delhi, India
This
interview appeared in Journal
of Astrology - July/Aug 2010
(Photo
by Shimizu Sakai)
Sri K.N. Rao, is widely considered to be one of the foremost
Vedic astrologers in the world today. He is the founder of Bharatiya
Vidya Bhavan’s school of astrology in New Delhi, India, which
is a two year course of study with over 1200 students and 27 teachers
(as of Oct 2009). He is also the founder of the bi-monthly magazine,
Journal of Astrology, and author of more than twenty-five
books. His academic and research-based approach combines both classic
and innovative methods like his PAC-DARES and Composite Approach,
which are used by students worldwide. Over the past forty years his
record of accurate predictions has earned him wide spread recognition.
His website is: www.JournalofAstrology.com.
Vaughn Paul: Thank you very much K.N. Raoji for taking time out
of your busy day to conduct this interview. For the benefit of those
who don’t know about your work could you tell us about your
background and your process of developing predictive skill as an astrologer.
K.N. Rao: Well it’s a very long story but I’ll
try to put it briefly. I fell ill when I was 11 years old and I was
nearly dying. That was during the Second World War. Anyway, when I
came back home my mother, who was an astrologer, initiated me into
astrology, numerology, palmistry and graphology to divert my attention
from my own physical weakness. I learned those things but I did not
pursue them, because I was more interested in sports and playing games
outside. But some time later I developed some astrology, after getting
into government service. So starting from 1942 I have been doing astrology.
In the 1960’s when I met my spiritual guru, Swami Paramananda
Saraswati, my interest in astrology intensified because he was always
interested in astrology. He would say that it is a great eternal tradition
of the country. People must take interest in it; it is a vedanga,
meaning part of the Vedas. At that point I was doing astrology but
not very methodically. Later, when I met my Jyotish guru, Yogi Bhaskaranandji,
everything got systematized because he told me that the answers I
was seeking to many spiritual questions were available through astrology.
He wrote an excellent book on astrology whose initial five chapters
dealt with astrology, religion and psychology. They were the most
brilliant chapters that I'd ever read. But after his death, some of
his disciples stole that book and it has not yet been published so
far. It is a big tragedy. I cannot imagine anyone else in the world
writing a book with so much experience and rich insight. But that
is lost. I tried my best to track it down in Ahmedabad, but it was
not available.
What happened in the course of time was that I got fed up with astrology.
It was not my source of earning and I never turned it into a source
of profit. I was only doing it to help people, my friends. My mantra
guru, Swami Paramananda Saraswati, told me not to give up astrology.
He said that, “Through astrology many people will come to
you and do Vishnu Sahasranam and Bhagavad Gita, etc. It becomes an
attraction for them to do this as a remedial measure. They wil come
onto the spiritual path through your astrology.” That has
proved tremendously correct. In the city of Delhi alone north Indians
who were never doing stotra recitation or chanting, are now doing
it. There are at least 10,000 people who do Vishnu Sahasranam in the
city of Delhi. It has spread among north Indians, while south Indians
have always been doing it.
Yogi Moorkhanandji's Vision
K.N. Rao: In 1980 my guruji took samadhi, and I thought that
I would finally stop doing astrology. Then I met Yogi Moorkhanandji
while he was in Delhi, in Ghaziabad. He told me to never give up astrology.
I asked him, "Why?" He said that, “You have a
big mission to fulfill. Through you this science of astrology will
be revived, and you will build up the world’s best and biggest
institution.” I jocularly told him, “But Swamiji,
I don’t have gadi, badi, or sari.” ‘Gadi’
means I don’t have a car. I never had a desire to have a car,
which I could have easily afforded, because I wanted to live with
the minimum of things. ‘Badi’ means house. I never even
had a house. I bought this small house only because paying rents in
Delhi would have made my living uneconomical. There are very heavy
rents here. So it has proved a blessing in disquise for fifteen years
now. ‘Sari’ means what a woman wears, which means I never
got married. So I said, “No gadi, no badi, no sari, how
can I build up an institution?” He said, “When
God wills it, it will come, and everything will get created. You will
see that it will happen.” It was a very fantastic vision
of his in 1980. It was unbelievable.
Yogi Moorkhanandji (Vidyaranya) and K.N. Rao
in 1981
Then, in 1982 Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan wrote to me a letter saying that
they wanted me to start astrology classes. They had known from some
sources that I was teaching astrology to small groups in the office
and at home. I met them and told them that if I start up an institution
that it would have to be with a team of teachers and not single handedly.
That way it will last even after I die or retire. So I waited for
some time. In 1987, I was ready with a small team of teachers, but
they were not very good. Anyway, each one could teach something, but
they were not thorough. Anyway, we started with only 30 students.
Today, in 2009, we have 1200 students and 27 teachers. We have 80
research publications and a quarterly journal running for more than
12 years. So it has been a very substantial achievement in that sense,
and every prediction made by Moorkhanandji has come out correct.
Click
on image to enlarge
Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Astrology School Faculty October 18,
2009 (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
FRONT ROW: Shiv Raj Sharma, R G Pandey, Dr Shri Rama
Mishra, C B Prasad, G N Saxena, M S Mehta, K N Rao,
Col A K Gour, N N Sharma, V P Goel. BACK ROW: A Radhika Rao,
Padma Raghavan, Akhila Kumar, Naval Singh, Shalini Dasmana,
Manoj Pathak, Dr S B Goel, E S Isaac, S Ganesh, Karnail Singh, Manoj
Kaushik, Deepak Kapoor, R S Pawar, K K Joshi. NOT SHOWN: Deepak Bisaria, Vinay Gupta, Rajesh Dadwal.
Incidentally, in 1987 when I was starting the institute, orthodox
pandits asked me, “Are you going to teach everyone?”
I said, “Yes, everyone.” There had been
a prejudice against women, non-Brahmins, and non-Hindus. I said, “Nothing
doing. Anyone can attend: Hindu, Muslim, Christian, men, women, or
any caste.” They said, ”Why?” I said,
“Because astrology is not forbidden to be taught to women,
non Hindu, or to people of another caste. Where is it written? It
is what you imported in the Middle Ages, creating a prejudice, and
a nonsensical halo above yourselves.” They could not show
me. But they went on abusing me. I said, “I will not stop.”
So now you see how many women are there at Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.
It’s now 30 or 40% women. You must have seen in the research
class of Manoj Pathak, that many of those women have MBA’s and
are highly well placed with good jobs. They’re earning about
50 lakhs per year (about $110,000) and they’re studying astrology.
They have the right attitude, and they’re very intelligent,
so they can immediately grasp it and produce. So I jocularly tell
these women, “If I had not been there you would never have
learned an element of astrology.” Anyway, so many pandits
are deciding to now keep quiet. So, you have to understand in America
you don’t have to fight these prejudices.
Manoj Pathak teaching a research class (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
Vaughn Paul: No, we don’t have to do that.
K.N. Rao: In India I had to fight it. I got
all the abuses. Now I get the praises also.
Defending Astrology in the Supreme Court
K.N. Rao: More important during this period
was the Supreme Court case against astrology. A judicial case first
started in Madras, and no astrologer went there as a petitioner in
person, which the Indian law allows. Fortunately, it was dismissed
on initial grounds. There was another case in the Andhra high court
and it was also dismissed on initial grounds. South Indians who are
said to be proud of their Indian culture never took even the slightest
interest in defending astrology. That was the most disgraceful part.
Then, K. Padmanabhaiah, a scientist and a rich man who lost the case
in Andhra Pradesh, decided to appeal to the Supreme Court. I personally
appealed to astrologers from all over India to file petitions as petitioners
in person. They promised they would come and file petitions. This
number was 60-80 astrologers. But, when the case was finally admitted,
I was the only one. There was no one else from the country. When the
case was being called on the merits, again I was the only one. There
was not even another astrologer in the audience at the court hearing
the case, other than two of my teachers from Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan.
You can understand the level of hypocrisy. These people talk about
the great rishi tradition of India, but when it actually comes to
showing solidarity to fight for astrology not one man came.
I fought this case despite my sickness, since I had not been well
after the year 2000. But anyway, by God’s grace, I went and
fought it and today astrology is legally protected in the country.
Now for the first time in the history of India, astrology is being
taught as a regular subject in the university. Over 20 universities
are now teaching astrology classes. That is a big achievement. In
that sense I have completed my mission. There is nothing left now.
At Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan we have a tradition of teaching, a tradition
of producing research, a tradition of writing books and publishing
them. And all this we have been able to achieve with only a two-day
weekend course of maximum three hours per day. That is the most remarkable
part. The universities have five-day per week courses at five hours
a day and they hardly achieve anything. We have achieved so much.
That is God’s will, that is the vision of Moorkhanandji.
A Fragmented Jyotish Tradition
Vaughn Paul: So this is a cornerstone
of your teaching of astrology, this research-based, academic approach.
Can you explain more about that?
K.N. Rao: What you must know is that in the year
1834, when the English rule began to introduce English education,
they totally destroyed the Sanskrit legacy and tradition in the process.
That has not been resurrected till this day. There is no Sanskrit
tradition, there is no Sanskrit parampara, there is no astrology tradition,
and there is no astrology parampara. The only small rudimentary parampara
that still exists is the karmakanda parampara where they do rituals
for marriage and other events, etc. Nothing more. Everything the Englishman
systematically destroyed by introducing English education. That was
the mischief, that was the intention. This can be best understood
by what Thomas Babington Macaulay stated in his speech of February
02, 1835, in the British Parliament. Please see this quote:
"I have travelled across the length and breadth of India
and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief, such
wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people
of such high caliber, that I do not think we would ever conquer this
country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is
her spiritual and cultural heritage, and therefore, I propose that
we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for
if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good
and greater than their own, they will lose their self esteem, their
native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated
nation."
So what happened was that the educated class, the Brahmins, had taken
to western English education quickly, they distinguished themselves,
but the Sanskrit tradition, which astrology was traditionally a part
of, got destroyed totally. Brahmins who remained in the countryside,
and did not have the benefit of an English education, became neglected.
They eked out a living out of the fragments of their knowledge of
karmakanda and some rudimentary astrology. In both of the National
Commissions for Backwards Classes of India (Kaka Kalelkar’s
in 1955 and B. P. Mandal’s in 1978), astrologers have been classified
as a backward class.
So those of us who are now doing astrology have inherited a fragmented
tradition. In the year 1901 we had 10% male literacy and ½%
female literacy. Such was the miserable condition. There was never
any question of any Jyotish tradition. People make all kinds of claims
about Jyotish paramparas, but don’t believe them. It all got
destroyed basically. Then, slowly it got revived. Dr. Raman’s
grandfather B. Suryanarayan Rao and some others revived it in South
India. In Andhra Pradesh, people brought out small booklets in Telegu,
the local language. In northern India it was revived in Varanasi,
Lucknow, and Bombay. In Lahore they brought out books in Urdu. Slowly
they brought them out, but there was no tradition. It was all in fragments.
Whatever book I got I read.
Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan Institute, New Delhi chapter (Photo by Vaughn Paul Manley)
The Necessity For Astrological Research
K.N. Rao: Now, this gradually leads us to the concept of astrological
research and why research is necessary. Try to understand that all
the classical astrological books that we read were written in the
Middle Ages. It was a feudal society: male dominated, pre-industrial
caste-reliant society, with none of the variety available to us today.
Today we live in the world where there is a lot of confusion, a lot
of variety, a lot of industrial and technological progress. So the
concepts have undergone a change. It is still male dominated but the
female is challenging the superiority of the male everywhere now.
It is that way in the West, so also in India. Females are employed;
they have economical independence and are not dependent on the male
anymore for their living. They believe in a very limited, planned
family and so the whole concept has undergone a change. If you look
at those astrology books you will find that none of them help you
to understand modern society, the modern male and female.
So how do you modernize those concepts? The principles of astrology
are eternally valid, but their contextual meaning has to undergo a
change in modern times.
A student giving a research presentation (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
For example, the trimshamsha, or 1/30th division of the Parashari
system, is traditionally made use of for the female and her character,
her sexual chastity and reliability, etc. Why do we do that? In a
male dominant society it was the female who was always suppressed,
therefore we looked at her trimshamsha and made use of it. If the
lagna or the Moon in the birth horoscope is in a benefic rasi of Jupiter,
Mercury, or Venus, and in the trimshamsha they go to Saturn’s
rasi then the female is characterless as per old astrological theories.
I’ve taken it up and proven that in the cases of a woman very
highly placed in society that they often have the Moon or lagna in
Saturn’s rasi in the trimshamsha. So the whole concept is undergoing
a change. The word we use is ‘dasi,’ which means a ‘servant.’
If the Moon or lagna is in Saturn’s rasi she becomes a dasi,
which means she’s employed, that’s all. Female employment
was unknown in the Middle Ages, except for the lower classes. But
today, 35-45% of females are seeking employment. Many of the well-educated
women are no longer only housewives, they will go out and seek employment.
So the trimshamsha and the vargas will have to be interpreted in a
different way.
Similarly, the books will say that the 11th lord in the 12th house
means that the man will be fined by the government, and go to jail.
I put it like this: the 11th house is the house of profit and also
elder siblings, and the 12th is foreign country. Therefore, siblings
will go and settle down in a foreign country or the person can do
business with a foreign country from where he can earn money. This
is a totally new interpretation not given in any of the old books.
Like that it goes on and goes on, it is endless!
The modern astrologer has to face manifold changes, and no single
astrologer can answer all questions put to them. It is impossible.
Why? Generally, what are the questions put to an astrologer? I call
it ECMCDIP. E is for education, C career, M marriage, C children,
D death, I illness, P property. These are the common questions put
to astrologers in India and out of all these a variety of problems
arise. So it is endless. The research has to go on endlessly. It cannot
stop. Buying a house in a housing society, applying for bank loans,
this was unknown in this country just 50 years ago. So how do you
answer these questions? Where is it given in any classic book? You
have to take principles from these books and apply them in modern
situations.
Modernizing Vedic Astrology
Vaughn Paul: So research in this
sense is the process of modernizing ancient Vedic astrology.
K.N. Rao: Totally modernizing it. If you do
not modernize then astrology has no utility for the person of the
21st century. The world has undergone such a big change. The whole
world is a global village now. What is happening in USA is affecting
India, and vice versa. Cultural crosscurrents have become very common.
They come as a craze, as a fad, if they stay longer they become a
trend, if they stay longer then they become part of civilization.
That is what is happening. There are many Indians leading an American
style of life, there are many Americans leading an Indian style of
life. This is a result of global influence.
K.N. Rao teaching an advanced research class (Photo by Vaughn Paul Manley)
How do you understand this? I look at the horoscope of an American,
and see why he became attracted to a spiritual sadhana of a foreign
country. This is a totally new idea. I have done a lot of research
on this and found some very fine answers. I look at the horoscope
of an Indian and I see him going abroad for study, pursuing foreign
degrees. American universities are full of Indian’s now studying
for higher degrees. So these are all modern trends that you will not
find mentioned anywhere in any of the old astrology books.
To do this you have to have a wide variety of techniques. You have
to see the dasha systems and see the different divisional charts in
order to understand it. And then synthesize. Then go into Jaimini
and in Jaimini come out with new researches. Forget the obscurantist
pandit who puts a very narrow meaning of the sutra. He does this terrible
sutra chopping and confuses you. I call them 'sutra-chopping' pandits.
They put one meaning of the sutra stupidly, and then they say, “No,
it cannot be anything else!” I say to them, “Apply
it and show me the results.” They just cannot show the
results. They don’t know how to interpret the sutras, apply
it and produce a research. They’ll only quote texts. If anyone
else is doing it they will criticize him. That is a trend in India.
Even today they are our critics. So I tell everyone to ignore those
pandits and continue with your research, and you’ll find extraordinary
results.
The Use of Seven Karakas in Jaimini
K.N. Rao: I’ll give you one instance.
In modern times B. Suryanarayan Rao, Dr. B.V. Raman, Iranganti Rangacharya,
Dr P.S. Shastri, all used only 7 karakas (not 8 karakas) in the Jaimini
system. And three of them were very good Sanskrit scholars: B. Suryanarayan
Rao and P.S. Shastri who are no more, and Iranganti Rangacharya who
is alive. Dr. Raman was a very practical man. Unlike other people,
unless Dr. Raman got a correct result he would never write a book.
The only mistake Dr. Raman committed was to land in a wrong ayanamsha.
I use what we have consistently found to give good results, the lahiri
ayanamsha, and I’m also very practical. I will never write about
anything, or teach anything if it is not result yielding. It must
show you the results straight away.
Now, getting back to 7 karakas. Surprisingly, all the famous commentators
on Jaimini, like Neelakantha, Krishna Mishra etc., never mentioned
why these karakas are used and what their meaning is. And all these
people also: B. Suryanarayan Rao, Dr. Raman, Iranganti Rangacharya,
P.S. Shastri never bothered to know why the karakas were used. I found
out in the course of time that the karakas represented the real soul
of the Jaimini system. If you do not know how to make use of the karakas
then Jaimini is useless for you. And if you know how to make use of
them then you can give fine predictions about career, marriage, children
and so many things. I spent 20 years working on Jaimini’s chara
dasha and in the process I had to make some modifications. When I
started predicting through Jaimini I found that the chara dasha, as
recommended by others, was giving the wrong timing. Then I corrected
it and now the chara dasha that I use gives the results of karakas
exactly, and also gives the timely very closely.
Naval Singh conducting a research class in Jaimini methods (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
The Composite Approach
Vaughn Paul: So in your composite approach you recommend
using vimshottari dasha and Jaimini’s chara dasha?
K.N. Rao: The term ‘Composite Approach’ is what
I have coined, but it has existed as a sound astrological technique
in India as will be clear to anyone who has read the Brihat Parashara
Hora Shastra. I have read more than ten versions in my life and
found all them containing many interpolations, absurd principles and
dogmatic observations (i.e. the disastrous consequences of planets
in the eighth house of any woman). The art of reading most of the
Hindu astrological books is the art of picking up gems from undeclared
dung heaps.
Now try to understand what are the components of the Composite Approach:
1) The first is PACDARES, which is the analysis of the birth horoscope.
If you do not have a sound technique of interpreting a bare birth
horoscope your astrology will remain stagnant. Apply PACDARES to the
birth horoscope and draw your conclusions. Call it intra-horoscopic
analysis.
2) Now come to the use of divisional horoscopes, six, seven, ten or
sixteen as has been done traditionally and call it inter-horoscopic
analysis.
3) Synthesize (1) and (2).
4) Now use the vimshottari dasha. In June 1995, during my fourth tour
of USA, I taught it at San Rafael. But I had developed some sickness
and a kindly Indian lady doctor who had examined me advised me to
avoid US tours, which I did after December 1995.
5) At this stage comes in the finest and subtlest use of ashtakavarga
applied to transits. My sickness prevented me from teaching it in
the USA, which I had wanted to do.
6) Now comes in the most complex and baffling technique of Indian
astrology. Combine a conditional nakshatra dasha of Parashara like
dwisaptati, chatursheeti, shodashottari, etc. wherever applicable.
If you can do it, your predictions can maintain an average of eighty
five percent success rate. However, it takes skill to see that the
results of two dashas do not clash. They give the same results but
they have to be seen intelligently.
7) I skipped stages (5) and (6) in my US tours and taught the seventh
stage in part, which is the use of Jaimini’s chara dasha. Marc
Boney picked it up well and made a great prediction with the most
convincing logic, about the victory of Bush over Gore in US presidential
election in 2000.
(8) There are other conditional Jaimini dashas, which I have taught.
However, different versions of Parashara texts, have given wrong versions
of Mandook dasha, and the so-called nine navamsha dashas. What I picked
up from the readings of Vemuri Ramamurthy Sastry alone works brilliantly
and almost infallibly.
(9) And finally the tajak or annual horoscope can be used to clinch
the prediction within the framework of the pratyantara dasha of Vimshottari
dasha.
The Use of the Karakamsha
K.N. Rao: Let me explain a second controversy in Jaimini,
which has been about the karakamsha. Everyone except me puts the karakamsha
exclusively in the navamsha, and takes the navamsha of the atmakaraka
as the karakamsha lagna. But in Darbhanga and Rajasthan I found that
the old astrologers took the karakamsha and put it in the birth horoscope.
I found that more logical. The reason is very simple. One of the sutras
of Jaimini says that if Saturn is in the karakamsha the man will become
famous in his line. In the first week of September 2009 Saturn was
in very late degrees of Leo making it the atmakaraka. Therefore, anyone
born anywhere in the world had Saturn in the karakamsha. That means
that all the people born in early September 2009 would become world
famous. That’s a very stupid generalization. How can that be
correct?
On the other hand, if you take what they recommend in Darbhanga and
Rajasthan and take the birth horoscope and put the karakamsha there,
then you’ll get extraordinarily correct results. The other is
wrong. Second, a Jaimini sutra says that if Venus is in the karakamsha
then the man will be sexually virile and live up to 100 years. Now,
Venus at 29 degrees and 58 minutes in Virgo will be in debilitation
and it will also be vargottama and it will also be the atmakaraka.
If you put it in the navamsha and treat it as being placed in the
karakamsha then all those people with Venus in that condition will
live to be 100 years. That again becomes a stupid interpretation.
I found this all going wrong. So I said nothing doing. I’ll
follow the Darbhanga and Rajasthan people who put the karakamsha in
the birth horoscope and interpret it, and I got extraordinarily correct
results. I gave brilliant predictions on that basis, and many of my
students have been doing that for 22 years. So I don’t bother
with the sutra-chopping pandits. They will confuse you totally and
they can produce no results.
M.S. Mehta illustrating a point (Photo by Vaughn Paul Manley)
Interpreting Classic Texts
K.N. Rao: Be careful when you read the various
English translations of the Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra,
also in Hindi there are versions by Sitaram Jha, Acyutananda Jha,
Ganesh Driptapati, Pathak etc. We read all those translations and
believe that these people have done a great service by making this
information easily available to us. But the meaning that they give
is sometimes very wrong. They give a meaning that they could not illustrate
because they never understood it themselves. They were generally very
poor predictors.
For example, all of them have given a method of doing pre-natal horoscopy,
which is creating a horoscope for the child before its birth when
the soul entered the womb of the mother. The method that has been
given for the calculation never comes out accurately. Sometimes it
gives you 10 months, sometimes 9 months and 20 or 25 days, and sometimes
only 7 months! How have they understood how to interpret it? Similarly,
they say that if the Sun is in the 12th house for Libra ascendant
the man will live for 100 years. It is stupid. How can you say that?
Everyone born in the month of September or October (while Sun is in
Virgo) with Libra ascendant cannot live for 100 years. So you have
to understand that we are grateful to these people for giving these
translations, but what they’ve written does not come out correct
sometimes. You have to intelligently reinterpret the whole thing.
Another example is a combination given for death caused by a vulture.
However, there are no vultures in the city of Delhi anymore. So what
does it mean when I see horoscopes with this combination? Death through
vulture means that a wild man will get an order to shoot you to death.
I found this combination and worked on it and on this basis I predicted
that Indira Gandhi would be assassinated - killed by a vulture. I
modernized it and made it a flexible interpretation and interpreted
it that way. So this reinterpretation has to go on constantly.
These days we have been doing a very beautiful research. We’re
looking at the horoscope of the male or female who want to get married
and determining the profession of the spouse. In India, it is an immensely
useful research because we are still a tradition bound conservative
society. The parents will come and show the horoscope of a girl and
ask what type of husband she will get. What will be his profession?
That is a primary question that they ask. In ancient times profession
meant a traditional occupation. You are a farmer, you are an ironsmith,
you are a warrior, or you are a priest. That’s all. Shudra,
Vaishya, Kshatriya, Brahman. Today you are a computer engineer, you
are a fashion designer, you are cinema actor, you work in TV, you
are a journalist, you are a salesman, etc. So this all has to be reinterpreted.
Group Research Projects
Vaughn Paul: For the benefit of
people who don’t know about the research projects at Bharatiya
Vidya Bhavan could you tell us how many charts you are using, etc.
K.N. Rao: Okay, see what happens is we have two types
of astrology researches going on simultaneously. The first is researching
various divisional horoscopes and dashas that have been neglected
for centuries. The second is researching a subject that is chosen
according to the socio-economic demand of the times we are living
in. As I told you, if you read all those books, on the basis of one
single planet, they give all the results, which is stupid, totally
stupid. You have to make use of the PACDARES approach and synthesize
the whole thing.
K.N. Rao commenting on a student's research presentation (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
For example, in 1986 a girl came to me who was a daughter of a colleague
of mine. I was in government service in those days. She was a south
Indian Brahmin, and she said that all the south Indian astrologers
said her horoscope was useless for marriage because there was Rahu
in the 7th house. South Indian astrologers are very narrow minded
and stupid sometimes. I made a total composite approach and I told
her look here, you will get a very prosperous and very good husband.
He’ll have an accounting background, he’ll be doing a
private job, not a government job, and you will lead a very happy
married life. She got married in 1988, and is still happily married.
She got a son and her husband is a chartered accountant and very prosperous.
She herself is in a good job, they own their own house in Madras,
and they have a good bank balance. Now if you were to go only on the
basis of Rahu in the 7th house you’d condemn the whole damn
thing! That is how they are doing astrology.
The Use of Remedial Measures
K.N. Rao: Then these astrologers will say,
“Come to me for remedial measures. I’ll do graha shanti
for you, and change your fate.” This is nonsense. How can
one man change another man’s fate? There are stupid fellows
in the country who fall into that trap. Indian astrologers go on and
spread this fraud in other countries also. In the USA you’ll
find people wearing stones and going for these remedial measures.
This is all nonsense. Parashara has not prescribed these remedial
measures. He has prescribed only mantras like the Vishnu Sahasranam,
Mrityunjaya, Durga Saptasati etc., and some charity, which is called
‘dhan.’ In the 17th chapter of the Bhagavad Gita, dhan
is described properly. It says that sattvic dhan means to give money
to a really needy person and it should be unconditional, without expecting
to get anything in return. That is real true sattvic dhan or donation.
So those are the remedial measures prescribed.
Now all types of new remedial measures come out. Why? The reason is
because people want to make money. There is one fellow in Delhi who
makes yantras and sells them to Americans for $100-500 dollars and
foolish Americans are buying them. They think they can take this yantra
and their fate will change. That is what is happening. So along with
the astrology that has spread to America a lot of superstitions have
also become attached to it. And the Americans think by wearing stones
or doing yantra puja their problems will be solved. That never happens.
Whatever is fated is bound to happen. But do some worship, because
it can be mitigated to some extent through sincere, honest worship.
Vaughn Paul: Which you recommend to
be done by the person himself or herself?
K.N.
Rao: He has to do it himself! You feel an appetite, so you
have to eat food. It is your problem therefore it is your worship.
It is not anyone whom you hire doing the worship and changing your
fate. Nothing happens like that. Not one single case. I have seen
case after case to prove this. But anyway this cheating is going on
in the name of kala sarpa yoga, pitri dosha, etc. All this cheating
has spread all over the world now through fraudulent Indian astrologers.
And in these days of web site astrology, the danger is much greater.
The PACDARES Method
Vaughn Paul: You mentioned just a moment ago about PACDARES.
Can you talk about this approach that you developed?
K.N. Rao: I’ll tell you. All the old astrologers
that I used to see in my childhood made use of a brilliant approach.
I saw my mother also doing this. They never coined any expressions
to explain it, but over the course of time I thought about it. When
I was teaching, the demand from students was to have a clear cut,
systematic approach. They were reading books and getting confused.
They would say Saturn in the 7th house means destruction, Rahu in
the 7th house means bad marriage. I would tell them this is all nonsense,
don’t go by that. Instead take a total synthesis. How do you
make a total synthesis? I said ‘P’ is for a where a planet
is placed or posited. ‘A’ is for how it is aspected. ‘C’
is for conjunctions. Therefore it is called PAC. Out of these some
yogas emerge. ‘D’ is for dhana yoga, money. ‘A’
is for arishta yoga, arishta is mishaps, illness, etc. ‘R’
is for raja yoga, getting high positions in life. ‘E’
is for exchanges, like the lord of the 2nd in the 4th, and lord of
the 4th in the 2nd, etc. ‘S’ is for special features,
which every horoscope has. Now look at this and synthesize the whole
thing by doing PAC. Out of this emerges DARES. This framework you
keep in your mind.
Now look at the dasha system and you see when a particular event is
to take place according to these yogas. Hindu astrology is a dasha
and yoga approach. The moment you forget that the system is destroyed.
You must know how to make use of the dashas, because the dashas are
the dynamic fructification of a promised event. The yogas show the
promised event, while the dashas show when it is going to be fulfilled.
So unless you do PACDARES you cannot develop any astrological skill
at all.
Dr. Shri Rama Mishra explaining a student's example chart (Photo by Vaughn Paul Manley)
So I evolved this tabulation because I saw all the experienced astrologers
taking these steps, even though they never expressed it. But I knew
they had it, so I systematized the whole thing. When I was teaching
students they found it very easy to understand. They had come from
a good educational background, so they wanted to understand everything
systematically. They also wanted to interlink different things in
a horoscope. So I said to do PACDARES, then you are able to interlink.
There is a second stupid controversy that was created by some Indian
astrologers here. They say to not see aspects in vargas. That is wrong.
The entire book Jataka Bharanam is based only on the interpretation
of vargas, particularly the navamsha and aspects in the navamsha.
Brilliant predictions come out of that. So see aspects also in varga
charts. You’ll get very good results.
Vaughn
Paul: Both Parashari and Jaimini aspects?
K.N.
Rao: Yes, but don’t mix the two systems. See aspects
separately within their own systems.
Jyotish and Spiritual Sadhana
Vaughn Paul: You often stress to
your students to practice astrology as part of spiritual sadhana,
as a service.
K.N. Rao: You see it is
like this. People will do it according to their background. Some are
very greedy and want to make money. They do make money and for some
years they prosper. Then after that, they and their family suffer
very badly. I warn them to be careful. I say, “Today you
are cheating someone, so your karma will boomerang, and you will also
suffer. You will not escape your karma.” So, if you become
professional at all, become an honest professional. Do it honestly,
charge honestly, that’s all. Stop there. There’s nothing
wrong in that. But the temptation to earn a lot of money and therefore
charge the heavy fees and charge for remedial measures is not astrology.
It is cheating, downright cheating. But that is what is happening.
Yesterday one girl was here from London whom I had known since 1978.
I had given her a prediction that she would marry and go abroad. She’s
now married and lives in London. She said Indian astrologers are appearing
on TV channels in London now, and doing the same thing that we are
doing in India - cheating. So like an infection this cheating is spreading.
So, those who do astrology as a spiritual sadhana benefit immensely,
tremendously, because their sadhana begins to have a strong spiritual
base. Then they don’t get easily shaken up.
Vaughn
Paul: So you’re saying for the astrologers themselves
to practice a spiritual sadhana?
K.N. Rao:
Astrologers, if they do spiritual sadhana it is excellent for them!
Traditional astrologers were doing it. And, at a later stage they
reduced their astrological activities to very little. For example,
I see only about 7 horoscopes per week now. Earlier I was seeing 10
horoscopes per day and so I have a huge collection of horoscopes.
I have reduced it, because one ought to devote more time to one’s
japam, sadhana, and meditation. Some of the astrologers will do that
as they grow old. Others will be greedy. But many of these greedy
astrologers don’t live very long, they die prematurely, leaving
a lot of suffering for their families.
Vaughn
Paul: Are there any specific practices that you recommend
astrologers to follow?
K.N. Rao: Well
in modern hectic times you cannot follow the old system. When I was
a child I used to see astrologers getting up early in the morning
and doing their worship. Then one or two hours after sunrise they
would sit down to do astrology while people came to them. This was
from about 7 o’clock until 10 or 11 o’clock. Then, they
would take their lunch and again come at 2 o’clock and do it
up to 4 or 5 o’clock, until sunset. They would not be doing
it before sunrise, and they would not be doing it after sunset. Now
these days, I do most of astrology only after sunset. This is because
during my service career I was busy in the office in the daytime,
so I could do it only after sunset. That choice had to be made. So,
if you can follow that old discipline that is excellent. Sit down
do your worship then do your astrology. Your moral excellence increases,
and your concentration is very good then. Your predictive success
is also much greater. If you do astrology after worship your predictions
qualitatively improve. Then as far as possible, if a needy man comes,
do astrology free for him even if you are a professional charging
heavily. That ideal should be there. But in the mercenary culture
of our times that ideal has vanished.
Misconceptions and the Value of Statistics
Vaughn Paul: What is left for you
to accomplish in your work?
K.N. Rao: My mission is over, there is nothing left.
There is an excellent teaching institute that has come up, the teachers
are there, the tradition of research is going on, book writing is
continuing. The journal is already getting handed over to a group
now, and I’m not looking after the journal anymore. They will
be able to publish the books that they write whether I am there or
not. We have won that classic case at the Supreme Court in favor of
astrology. So all that I’m continuing to do is consolidate this
tradition of students writing and doing research. That is the last
thing that I’m doing. We have now three other teachers, other
than myself, conducting research, Manoj Pathak, Naval Singh, and Deepak
Bisaria. They have their own classes. We have reached a fantastic
number of 230 students in research classes alone now.
Deepak Bisaria discussing a chart with a research student (Photo by Vaughn Paul Manley)
Vaughn Paul: So they must collect a huge body of
examples?
K.N.
Rao: We collect lots of examples and get them examined, but
when we publish a book we take only 50-100 horoscopes, because we
can’t take 1,000. We may have examined 1,000, but we give as
a specimen 50-100 examples and prove the point. We are doing it through
sound replicable techniques, with a sound methodology. We decide upon
the parameters and these become the replicable techniques.
Vaughn Paul: And then you show the statistics of
the results.
K.N. Rao: Absolutely, we always show the statistics.
For example; the last book we produced was on Saturn’s transit
in Hindi. It covers sade-sati, that is the 7 ½ year cycle of
Saturn around the Moon; kantak shani, that is Saturn in the 4th house
from the Moon; and ashtam shani, that is Saturn in the 8th house from
the Moon. So we take the totality of the picture. All the fright that
astrologers create through their newspaper predictions, and TV shows
is wrong. 70% of the time these transits are highly favorable, but
you must see it along with the dasha. Only 30% of the time it creates
problems. This book will destroy many of the misconceptions that people
have.
Similarly, I wrote a book on kala sarpa yoga, giving examples of famous
people. In the Rahu dasha, these people with the so-called kala sarpa
yoga, have prospered and risen high. So all this fright, which Hindu
astrologers create to make money and prescribe remedies must be stopped.
Future generations should think of legal action against them. That
remains to be done. Unless strong legal action is taken against these
malpractices, you can do nothing about it. One of the well-known frauds
of the country even told one man that there is a kala sarpa yoga in
Jaimini, which other astrologers do not know about. He cheated this
man out of 25,000 rupees. So, future generations of astrologers must
wake up and take legal action to stop these malpractices.
Replicable Technique
Vaughn Paul: With all the research that is available through
your publications and the journal, students now have the big advantage
of being able to see statistics that disprove many of these common
misconceptions.
K.N. Rao: Why this statistical
research is necessary is because no one in modern times will be convinced
that astrology is a science unless they see the technique replicated.
They are not going to be impressed by your quoting Sanskrit shlokas
or talking about the great tradition of parampara. He’s a downright
practical man, and he says, "Show me the technique, show
me the methodology, show me the results." That scientific
culture has come to stay now. Students at Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan come
and say, “Please show us how it works.”
Col. A.K. Gour analyzing an example chart (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
Two years ago we published a book, Timing of Marriage. Students
examined nearly 500 horoscopes, but in the book we gave about 60 examples
showing a nine-fold approach to the timing of marriage. And they got
99% results, which is even better than physics. In physics if you
get 90% results you call it great. In mathematics perhaps you need
100%, I don’t know. In medicine, if you get 60% results you
approve the medicine. But here we are getting 99% results using statistical
research, and replicable techniques applied to hundreds of horoscopes.
In the book we show so many examples, and everything is crystal clear.
We don’t care about boasting of parampara or tradition. We just
want results to be shown through a workable methodology and through
replication. We are succeeding in doing that.
I single-handedly did the first such book that we produced, called,
Planets and Children.The methods in this book have been tested
in the USA and Russia when I went there to teach. It has been tested
all over the world and by many thousands of my students here at Bharatiya
Vidya Bhavan. It is the largest and most widely tested statistical
research in the world. Like that, this modernizing of astrology and
this meeting of current challenges will go on. For example, a year
ago we faced the problem of recession in America, creating a terrible
job crisis for many people. In all the cases I have seen that it is
clearly explainable through the dashas and antardashas. I’ll
give you one instance.
Example Chart
K.N. Rao: Now see, this man is running Saturn-Saturn-Mars.
Saturn is debilitated in the 12th house and Mars is debilitated in
the 3rd house, and is the 12th lord and 7th lord. In October 2009,
during Saturn-Saturn-Mars, he is in a foreign country, in the UAE
(United Arab Emirates) and he lost his job. In Saturn-Saturn-Rahu,
starting from November 8th, 2009, he will get a good job by moving
out of UAE to a new place. Rahu is in the 11th house. How well it
works you see. A recession in America, is affecting an Indian working
in the UAE. His horoscope shows this effect. That is the astrology
we do. Like this we collect hundreds of horoscopes and show results.
When he will get employment next can also be seen here.
Vaughn Paul: And then if we had time you’d
go into chara dasha, etc.
K.N. Rao:
I can go into all that, but just at a glance here it is clear. He
wrote to me a desperate letter. The moment I opened it I said yes,
this is going to happen. Here read this:
Vaughn
Paul:“I’ve had sudden misfortune. On Oct.
6th, I was fired from my current job, and I’m actively looking
for a job now…”
K.N. Rao:
Okay, he was fired from his job. On 6th October 2009, Saturn-Saturn-Mars
was running and he lost his job. Saturn is in the 12th house, Mars
is the 12th lord, and he is in a foreign country. So it is so precise,
astrology is so scientific. The moment I saw that letter, I opened
the horoscope and said it is clear, crystal clear. This is our Hindu
astrology. If you don’t use the dasha system, astrology will
be ruined.
Vaughn Paul: I’ve
also seen myself just in the days that I’ve spent at Bharatiya
Vidya Bhavan on this trip, that it’s very exciting to see students
talking with one another, they’ll be pointing out a chart and
they’ll say, “Oh it’s this, it’s this
and this.” They may ask one another, “What about
this?” It’s a very dynamic learning environment and
they’re all using this composite approach and PACDARES method
and getting excellent results.
K.N. Rao:
This has now crystallized into a tradition at Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan
and the institution will keep on prospering. We teach you a method,
but it is for you to develop your predictive skill through that method.
We cannot give you predictive skill.
There was a great musicologist in the country by the name of Bhatkhande.
He had a five-year musical course in Lucknow, a beautiful course.
At the end of the five years he used to say, “In these five
years what we have taught you is 'nayaki,' that is a method, not 'gayaki,'
not the skill of singing. This you have to develop yourself.”
Similarly, what we are doing at Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan is teaching
you 'nayaki', a method. 'Gayaki' you develop yourself by working more
and more. And students now are developing very fast. This is because
these days student who come here have the great advantage of reading
these books and researches. They buy all the books and read them.
By the time they complete the second year course they develop good
skill.
Vaughn Paul: And if they have
questions there are so many teachers and other competent students
to get the answers very readily.
K.N. Rao:
So it’s at a very high level, a very high level now. The teachers
themselves will have to keep on upgrading their skill. After some
time the teacher will find it difficult to meet the challenges of
the students. It is becoming so difficult now.
The faculty on break between classes (Photo by Vaughn Paul Manley)
Key Factors for Success
Vaughn Paul: So what do you consider the secret
behind Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan’s success?
K.N.
Rao: You know, any organization, anywhere in the world, can
only develop if the cause of an organization is kept above self-interests.
All the organizations get shattered and vanish into limbo when self-interest
predominates and the real cause is forgotten. At Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan
we face similar problems.
We started in 1987, but in 1989, when we started reaching the number
of 200 students, people became greedy. One person wanted to impose
his books and his ayanamsha. You can understand whom. I said,
“No, we use only Lahiri ayanamsha.” There was an
initial quarrel about this. Someone in Delhi who was bringing out
a monthly journal told me, “You prescribe it for the students.”
I said, “No, students are at liberty to buy whichever astrological
journal that they want.” But in 1997, when Bharatiya Vidya
Bhavan decided to start its own journal, the Journal of Astrology,
it was made part of the curriculum because it was our home journal.
Students contribute articles, and we develop new writers. We don’t
ask writers outside to contribute because we have produced enough
writers. Getting back to what I was saying, some of our teachers became
greedy. They started all types of gimmicks and trapping students.
There were one or two scandals. We had to get rid of them.
Students working on a research article at K.N. Rao's house (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
In 1994, there was a major trouble because a majority of the teachers
were not producing any research. I said, “You can’t
go on like that. A decent institution is to have a reputation as a
research center. You just cannot come and teach like a school master
and go away.” So that created a big crisis and more than
half of our teachers left. That was a blessing in disguise because
we’ve got well-trained students, and we could train them as
teachers. After 1994 we jumped to 600 students because the quality
of teaching improved, and the reputation spread.
In 1997, Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan announced that they were starting
a journal with me as the editor. At the same time three teachers started
a parallel magazine of their own without informing us. Bharatiya Vidya
Bhavan took a decision straight away to terminate their services.
So these problems came up. When the cause is forgotten and people
want to promote their own self-interest, the organization must suffer.
So three times this weeding out had to be done: in 1989, 1994, and
1997. Then recently, about two years ago, two teachers manipulated
marks on examinations to favor their favorite students. So we had
to get rid of them. Then one year ago there were two other teachers
that we had to ask to leave because they became incompetent, and produced
no research.
Vaughn Paul: So it’s
just like in the West where professors of major universities are expected
to 'publish or perish' as they say.
K.N. Rao:
It is the same thing here. I made it very strict. I said, “Do
some research, produce here, otherwise you’ll be dismissed.”
Vaughn Paul: So the research is really the
primary cause other than the teaching.
K.N. Rao:
Every teacher must keep on doing that, because the teacher must show
that he is providing intellectual stimulation to the students. After
all, we have high quality students, and they’re giving brilliant
predictions. I have to concede that particularly some of our female
students are very brilliant. So unless our teachers also develop well,
we can’t keep them. These problems come up but you must keep
the cause always above your self-interest while in an organization.
Then the organization develops. It has gone on well for twenty-two
years only because of this: collectively and individually, we have
kept the cause above our self-interest. Without that it cannot go
on.
A. Radhika Rao after teaching a class (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
The second important thing is that in 1994, when we decided to split,
the one major decision I took was to hand over the entire financial
administration to Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan. That way there is no temptation
for any teacher to make any money out of it. Money is a big temptation
always. Keep that out. So there is no teacher, who handles any finance,
or earns anything. It is all on a volunteer basis. But Bharatiya Vidya
Bhavan (which teaches other subjects like language, management, film,
etc.) makes a large profit out of it. It has prospered so well. Bharatiya
Vidya Bhavan annually earns fifty lakhs. And it will go on increasing
because we are attracting more and more students.
Vaughn
Paul: And I understand that even students that have completed
the two-year course will stay on and do the research classes indefinitely.
K.N. Rao: They do research. They have the
stimulus to do research because they find the strain of doing research
is less when there’s a group class. Everyone brings the data
and they work together on it. If a student does the research alone,
with his family to look after and a job to look after, it becomes
difficult. So I suggest working collectively. The strain is less,
the statistical testing becomes very vast, and the replication is
brilliant. Research students benefit quite a lot, and they also become
valuable contributors of articles to the Journal of Astrology.
Tips for Developing Jyotish Skill
Vaughn Paul: Do you have any recommendations
for students of Vedic astrology who don’t have the advantage
of being in New Delhi, and studying at Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan?
K.N. Rao: Yes, they can read the books we
are publishing in English. That is one.
First, students must become technically proficient. This will happen
if you master the rudiments properly. Then, be careful about the Jyotish
software you are using. Now some of the software gives you eight karakas
and ruins your Jaimini. Some of them will give chara dasha totally
wrong. These things you must learn and calculate manually. Then don’t
go by many of the superficial claims of parampara, etc. See practically
whether what is being said is working or not. Take the time to go
through that. After doing that keep on collecting horoscopes.
A moment of laughter in Manoj Pathak's research class (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
The best way to develop skill is to keep on collecting the horoscopes
of people whom you know intimately, whose life details are known to
you well. Then ponder over the horoscope. Keep on seeing why something
happened at a particular time. You will develop your skill. There
is no other method. This is what helps you to develop beautifully
and solidly. And if you think someone will give you some small tidbits
and then you’ll be able to work magic, then that is wrong. You
cannot. You have to learn the subject properly, and you have to develop
your skill properly. And the best way of developing skill is to keep
on working on horoscopes and go into the depth of the horoscope. By
‘depth of the horoscope’ I mean go into the divisional
horoscopes, and go into the composite approach. Then you will get
the full grasp of the horoscope.
The Negative Effects of Growing Popularity
Vaughn Paul: Do you see any negative
effects of the growing popularity of Vedic Astrology?
K.N. Rao: You see, when a subject becomes very popular,
it loses the sheen, the brilliance of an academic study. It becomes
a part of pop culture and gets defiled, vulgarized. It’s like
classical music versus pop music. You see the difference? Similarly,
there is no comparison between classical, brilliant, academic astrology
versus pop astrology, which you see on TV and in newspapers. Pop astrology
is totally vulgar. It has no meaning. So the danger of academic astrology
becoming associated with pop astrology is always there. To prevent
this danger it is necessary to come out, at some stage, with strong
legislation all over the world. Otherwise, this will become a terribly
corrupting influence, and academic astrology will suffer as a result.
Ordinary people will think that this vulgar astrology is equated with
real astrology, which it is not.
Vaughn Paul:
So, nowadays, anyone can develop a web site and make any claims.
K.N. Rao: Yes. A lot of stupid and wrong claims
have been made. So-called paramparas have been promoted. Jaimini has
been distorted. Stupid theories have been floated. Kala sarpa yoga
has been bloated beyond proportion and made into a big money earner.
All these type of things have happened. So that is the danger of pop
astrology spreading in America, in Russia, and everywhere. Now you
see stones are being prescribed as a remedy measure. It is nonsense.
it is not given in any classical book of astrology. So this pop astrology
has to be controlled.
Regulating Malpractice
Vaughn Paul: What do you envision
as the best-case scenario of how the study and practice of Vedic astrology
can develop from this point forward?
K.N. Rao:
You see once there is a global linkage of serious astrological centers,
where good research is being done, they can collectively persuade
their respective governments to come out with proper legislation to
regulate and control malpractices.
The beautiful thing that happened in the USA in the 19th century was
that the moral practices of doctors was controlled and regulated when
the American Medical Association was formed. Medical treatment can
be expensive, but medical malpractices are very, very controlled due
to strong organization and legislation. So the same thing should happen
with astrology. International astrological centers should link up
and persuade governments to come out with proper legislation. There
should be a good organization. So that is bound to happen, but it
will take some time to get the proper regulation. After 30-60 years
astrology will get recognized all over the world as the science of
sciences, as the science of counseling primarily, and prediction secondarily.
In India, prediction is primary and counseling is secondary. In America,
counseling is primary, and prediction is secondary. The West’s
concept is, “Man makes his own destiny.” In the
East, we believe in preordained destiny. So the approach to astrology
will be basically different in the East and the West. In India, if
you say life is predestined, people will easily accept it. In America
or England, if you say the same thing they will not accept it. In
India and the USA, during the days of British Imperialism it used
to be said, “Character is destiny.” A man can
affect his destiny according to his character. In India we don’t
say, “Character is destiny.” We say, "There
is a destiny that you’re born with." Part of destiny
is totally unalterable, part of destiny is alterable, and part of
destiny is half alterable and half unalterable. Therefore, we use
three terms: dridha karma, adridha karma, and dridha-adridha karma.
This means that which is unchangeable, that which is changeable, and
that which is half changeable. So our approach is that we believe
in destiny. Therefore, here in India prediction will be primary, and
counseling will be secondary. In the West, it will be the opposite.
Regaining Dignity in Jyotish
Vaughn Paul: In America, I feel like I’m
constantly faced with prejudices against astrology being an undignified
study.
K.N. Rao: Yes, they think it
is undignified. But once you begin to establish and show the replication,
then the same study will become highly dignified. That is what ACVA
(the American College of Vedic Astrology) should have done. That should
have been their aim. In any case, if you produce an internationally
replicable research in one, two, or three areas, then you can attack
the scientific establishment. You can tell them, “You have
closed your mind. You have not studied this. Come on disprove it!”
In India, I had to fight this alone. As soon as scientists came to
the court of law to fight astrology I destroyed all their arguments
in 22 minutes. They could not argue with me. So you can plan it for
the next 6-10 years and you’ll see that astrology will get the
dignity, rest assured. If you do your work honestly, it will become
highly dignified. Now in Delhi people are learning astrology and respecting
astrology. Why are these students coming to our classes from other
subjects? It is because they respect it. They want to learn it. You
must create the same condition in the USA.
A student presenting his research (Photo
by Vaughn Paul Manley)
In Russia, scientists come to my classes. There were fifty-four students
in the first class in Russia, and fifty-two had Ph.D.s! Half of those
Ph.D.s were people with a scientific background. When I demonstrated
the replication I said, “Now take your own horoscopes and
apply this." They said, “Yes, it is working.”
They became convinced. Immediately they translated my book, Planets
and Children, into Russian. In USA, the advantage is that you
don’t have to translate it into English. You only need to replicate
and show it to them. There is a cause and effect. That is stage number
one. Stage number two: there is a methodology. Number three: there
is replication. You’re finished. Three stages.
Challenging Scientific Circles
K.N. Rao: The so-called scientists will oppose
astrology. In the USA, you have an entire scientific establishment
and they are Christian supported. Right? So the acceptance by a majority
is never possible in the USA. But acceptance of 30 or 40% is enough.
But other people will come secretly and consult you. They will not
share it openly, because there is a long history of church opposition
to astrology right from the Middle Ages, and today scientists are
also opposing. So the church and scientists will combine to oppose
astrology. Therefore, unless a sound replicable research comes out,
they will not accept it. Then you can tell them, “Astrology
has nothing to do with religion. It is a subject for study like any
other.” What should be their difficulty in accepting it?
Is the church opposed to the study of sociology? No. Then why are
they opposing astrology?
Vaughn Paul:
They don’t even oppose astronomy, a subject so closely linked
to astrology. I think the reason is what you said earlier, that if
the church didn’t oppose astrology, then more people would go
to astrologers than to the ministers for advice.
K.N.
Rao: Yes. In the Middle Ages in Europe, there was terrible
opposition to astrology. It’s a very bad history with a lot
of prejudice.
When I was in the USA I gave a lecture to scientists in Boston. They
came quietly, and other people came. The program was not publicized,
but it spread ‘word of mouth.’ One American lady put up
her chart on the board. I said, “Look here, you have studied
philosophy, then your studies were interrupted, and then you resumed
your studies and you’re in an educational career.”
She said, “Yes. Everything is correct.” I continued,
“And these days you should be planning to go abroad.”
She said, “Yes, I’m going to Germany.”
I said, “That is our astrology. You can see that unless
you apply the dasha system, you cannot know. That is our progression,
not Western astrology’s progression based on transits.”
Then many of them enlisted to study Vedic astrology. They said, “We
want to study. You can see so clearly about us from the horoscope.
It is worth studying. We’ll study it.” So scientists
can study this astrology. There is no difficulty, except maybe there
is difficulty with Christians. However, if the USA accepts it, Europe
will accept it. USA leads and the rest of the world follows. The 10%
of the population in India who are opposed will keep quiet. 90% in
India are not opposed.
The Universal Subject of Astrology
Vaughn Paul: Is that because it is
associated with the Hindu religion?
K.N. Rao:
Absolutely! In the Supreme Court, when I was arguing the case for
astrology, I said, “The Mahabharata, Ramayana, or show me
a single Purana where astrology is not mentioned?” How
can you dissociate astrology from the Hindu religion? You cannot.
Vaughn Paul: So to deny astrology would be
to deny your sacred tradition.
K.N. Rao:
Yes. It is not so in Christianity. It is not so in Islam. But it is
so in the Hindu religion. We have the birth horoscope of Rama. We
have the birth horoscope of Krishna. From where they got it, I do
not know. But we have it from historical records. Astrology is an
integral part of the Hindu religion. Nowhere else in the world is
it an integral part.
Vaughn Paul: Does
that make it a requirement, for someone who is studying Hindu astrology,
to be receptive towards Hinduism?
K.N. Rao:
No. Do you mean they have to convert to Hinduism? No. This study is
an apara subject. ‘Apara’ means a non-spiritual subject.
In the Mundaka Upanishad, educational subjects are divided
into two parts: ‘para’ and ‘apara.’ ‘Para’
is what takes you towards God, spirituality. ‘Apara’ is
simply sociology, medicine, anything. So astrology is also an apara
subject.
Vaughn Paul: So, in fact, Vedic
astrology or Hindu astrology is really just astrology.To put a name
before it is to limit it to a particular culture.
K.N.
Rao: Yes. I argued in the Supreme Court that a Hindu Brahmin
goes and studies allopathy. Allopathy has come from the USA. Does
he become a Christian after studying it? I went to America, I went
to Russia and taught them astrology. Did I convert them into Hindus?
They studied the subject and went away. They retained their faith.
I have my faith. There are so many Christians who came to my classes
in America. There are so many Russian Orthodox Church members in my
classes in Russia. So what happened? There is no question of conversion
here. It is just a wrong political argument. Some Indians gave me
that argument. I said, “This is nonsense.” It
does not belong to any religion, it is a universal subject which anyone
can study anywhere.
Vaughn Paul: Thank
you very much K.N. Raoji for so generously sharing your wisdom and
insights in this interview. It has been incredibly informative and
I’m sure it will be very useful for students of this great study
of Jyotish. Namaste.
K.N. Rao and Vaughn Paul Manley (Photo
by Shimizu Sakai)
