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Vargotamma planet also Retrograde......effects???

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Vargotamma planet also Retrograde......effects???

Postby cmsiit » Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:06 pm

hii all
what happens when a Retrograde planet is also vargotamma???
looking forward to hear from you
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Postby Basab » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:59 am

i think it becomes very strong.
"You will understand the Gita better with your biceps, your muscles, a little stronger." -- Swami Vivekananda
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Postby Gurudeva » Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:30 am

yes you are right .. it will become stronger. But at the same time find whether it become strong as malefic or benefic.

benefic: for any lagna subhasthana adhipathi placed in subhasthana and retrograded...........and vargottama in navamsa.........it become stronger as benefic viceversa
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Postby akshaykapoor1973 » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:35 pm

Hi,

Does this mean that a retrogade trik house lord placed in its mooltriknona house in lgna chart and vargotama will become a stronger malefic? For example in Taurus lagna retrograde Mars in 12th house is mooltrikona and if its vargotama does it make it a stronger malefic or stronger benefic.

rgds
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retrogade

Postby astrokinghyd » Sat May 19, 2007 3:52 am

Dear readers,
I would like to share a way of analyzing retrograde, vargottam planets that I USE. In my experience most of the times it works. There ARE rarest occasions when this way does not work. THIS IS NOT A RULE WRITTEN IN ANY OF THE ASTROLOGICAL TEXTS. IT IS JUST THAT I HAVE EXTENDED MY IMAGINATION BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE. YOU MAY AGREE WITH IT OR MAY NOT. Either ways, I will like to hear your response. Any improvisations suggested will be well taken. Here it goes:

There is a touch of algebra to this.
1. Keep in mind 4 factors: (a) Who is the planet concerned, a natural benefic or malefic (b) What is the sign it occupies, enemy planet's sign/debilitated or friendly/own/mooltrikona/exalted (c) Is the house condusive to the planet (d) Is it retrograde or not.
2. Now, for factors (a) to (c) if the answers are negative, take the result as "minus" for each factor.
3. If retrograde take always "minus" - other wise dont consider the factor, at all.
4. Mutiply these four (or three, if not retrograde) resultant signs. If you get finally "plus" then diagnose that the planet will act favourably - if "minus" it is unfavourable.


Example1:
Planet Jupiter - Natural Benefic - plus
Sign - Pisces - Own Sign - plus
House 11th House - favourable - plus
Retrograde - yes - minus
Conclusion: plus x plus x plus x minus = minus
Therefore, Retrograde Jupiter in Pisces in 11th house is bad.

Example2:
Planet saturn - Natural Malefic - minus
Sign - Libra - Exalted - plus
House 5th House - unfavourable - minus
Conclusion: minus x plus x minus = plus
Therefore, a non-retrograde exalted saturn in 5th house is good.

The following superceeds all the above logic:
1.All vargottams are good (even debilitated vargottams)
2. Any planet debilitated in navamsa is finally bad

Readers may try out this.

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Vargotamma planet also Retrograde......effects???

Postby umaabirami » Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:38 am

In point 2 - I wanted to know when Jupiter is Aquarius (Saturn's home) is considered as minus or plus?
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Postby astrokinghyd » Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:42 pm

When Jupiter is Aquarius (Saturn's home) is considered as plus.

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Postby p.mahesh » Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:41 pm

Dear Satish,
You wrote:

"There is a touch of algebra to this.
1. Keep in mind 4 factors: (a) Who is the planet concerned, a natural benefic or malefic (b) What is the sign it occupies, enemy planet's sign/debilitated or friendly/own/mooltrikona/exalted (c) Is the house condusive to the planet (d) Is it retrograde or not."

Q) regarding c), what is the criteria to decide whether
a house is condusive OR not to a planet?

Mahesh
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Postby astrokinghyd » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:15 pm

Mahesh,
When I say " a house is condusive OR not to a planet", I mean that we should consider following two factors:
(a) Keeping every thing aside, as a fundamental we know that Angles/Trines are good for Natural benefics and other houses good for natural Malefics. Accordingly, decide whether "plus" or "minus"
(b) Ignore the result in (a) above and take it as "plus" if the planet occupying a particular house is himself the KARAKA OF THAT HOUSE.

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Vargotamma planet also Retrograde......effects???

Postby umaabirami » Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:30 am

Thanks for the reply. The tables was helpful in finding whether good or bad. I caluclated the following as per your tables correct me if I am wrong.

Here is the situation for Taurus Acsendent and moon is in Libra.

7th and 12th lord Mars is in 5th in Virgo and it is Vargottama. It is not in Retro.

That means (a) is minus as it is natural malefic (b) is minus as it is in enemey's house (mercury) (c) is minus as it is natural malefic in trine. The final result is minus and so deep rooted failure in love/marriage/children?

8th and 11th lord Jupiter is in 10th in Aquarius and it is Vargottama. It is in Retro.

That means (a) is plus as it is natural benefic (b) is plus as it is in freind's home (c) is plus as it is natural benefic in Kendra. (d) is minus as it is retro. The final result is minus and so profession will be affected badly?

4th lord Sun is debiliated in 6th in Libra and it is Vargottama.

That means (a) is minus as it is natural malefic (b) is minus as it is debiliated (c) is plus as it is natural malefic in dusta house. Final result is plus so good eventough debiliated Vargottama?

Also Ascendent is in Vargottama. That means Ascendent is more powerful than Moon Rashi?
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Postby astrokinghyd » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:47 am

Dear Umaabirami,
Yes, this is the way I do. I am happy that it is working with your experience.
I had already said, "THIS IS NOT A RULE WRITTEN IN ANY OF THE ASTROLOGICAL TEXTS. IT IS JUST THAT I HAVE EXTENDED MY IMAGINATION BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE. YOU MAY AGREE WITH IT OR MAY NOT".
Let us see if more friends report about their agreement/disagreement about this humble attempt from me.
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Re: retrogade

Postby Basab » Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:46 pm

astrokinghyd wrote:Example1:
Planet Jupiter - Natural Benefic - plus
Sign - Pisces - Own Sign - plus
House 11th House - favourable - plus
Retrograde - yes - minus
Conclusion: plus x plus x plus x minus = minus
Therefore, Retrograde Jupiter in Pisces in 11th house is bad.

Example2:
Planet saturn - Natural Malefic - minus
Sign - Libra - Exalted - plus
House 5th House - unfavourable - minus
Conclusion: minus x plus x minus = plus
Therefore, a non-retrograde exalted saturn in 5th house is good.

in Satishji's examples the answers are absolutely correct but the calculation is not. it's true that jupiter won't be favourable and saturn will be favourable but in the first example jupiter has got three positive points and just one negative point and the result is bad but logically the reult should be good and not bad and in the second example saturn has got 2 negative points and one positive point and the result is good though logically the result should be bad as it has got more negative points than positive points. so i think it's better if the positive and negative points are added instead of mutiplied, that i believe will give a more accurate picture. taking the same examples i am adding the positives and negatives instead of multiplying the positives and negatives as Satisji has done.
example1:
Planet Jupiter - Natural Benefic - plus
Sign - Pisces - Own Sign - plus
House 11th House - favourable - plus
Retrograde - yes - minus
Conclusion: plus + plus + plus + minus = plus
Therefore, Retrograde Jupiter in Pisces in 11th house is good.
Example2:
Planet saturn - Natural Malefic - minus
Sign - Libra - Exalted - plus
House 5th House - unfavourable - minus
Conclusion: minus + plus + minus = minus
Therefore, a non-retrograde exalted saturn in 5th house is bad.
this gives a logical result as in the first exampe the positives are more so the result is good and in the second case the negatives are more so the result is bad.
i just gave the aforesaid examples to show that mathematically the calculation should be done this way but i believe even this doesn't give a correct picture. i believe the strength of a planet cannot be measured in this way. it's because saturn though is being shown as bad is not at all bad and is good because it is exalted in the 5th house being the lord of the 9th house. it is a functional benefic for gemini lagna so not at all negative and jupiter would not be that favourable as jupiter is a functional malefic and retrograde as well. but jupiter will still give some good results definitely, but how much that cannot be assessed if calculation is done on the basis of positive and negative points. percentage should be fixed for vaious positive and negative points. i believe functional status of a planet holds a lot of importance and not just natural beneficience/maleficience. then it should be checked whether a planet is under benefic or malefic influence. so these additional parameteres should also be taken into consideration and percentage should be given to assess the strength of the planet because an exalted planet get's a better score than a planet in it's own house but if just postive and negative is just given then the extent of good or bad cannot be understood. one should apply all the parameters and give them certain percentages as per it's importance and assess the strength of a planet.
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Re: retrogade

Postby Basab » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:14 am

astrokinghyd wrote:The following superceeds all the above logic:
1.All vargottams are good (even debilitated vargottams)
2. Any planet debilitated in navamsa is finally bad


don't you think the points are contradictory to each other.
in the first point you have mentioned that a debiliated vargattoma planet is good but in the second point you have mentioned that a planet debiliated in navamsha is bad so a debiliated planet when vargattoma means the planet is debiliated in navamsha so how can it be good and bad at the same time?
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Postby astrokinghyd » Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:00 am

Dear Basab,

Reading your SECOND mail of 13.08.07 (about vargottam planets), I think I have goofed-up the "vargottam of debilitation" issue! I will come back on this point. Let me re-check before confirming.

However, as regards the contents in your FIRST mail of 13.08.07, honestly, I am not convinced, "on the face of it", with what you say. Let me go back to the 40-odd examples on the basis of which I had tried to device this "logical formulation". I may take a few days, but I will certainly come back.

Any way, thanks for your views/observations. Meanwhile, I also request you to actually apply what you have written to about 15-20 charts and have a re-look till such time I do my home-work.

The idea is only that we try to learn and follow the correct thing!

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Re: Vargotamma planet also Retrograde......effects???

Postby Basab » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:00 am

dear Satishiji,
i think this can be understood very logically and doesn't need to be applied to charts to be proven.

you are multipying the positives and negatives.
if just one factor is negative then even if an infinite no. of positive factors be there the result will always be negative because
minus x plus x plus x plus x plus x plus = minus
so the negative will turn into a positive only if there is 2 negative(minus) points otherwise not because
minus x minus = plus which i believe can never give a clear picture.
as per my method
minus + plus + plus + plus + plus + plus = 4(plus) which shows the strength of the planet quite clearly.

looking at it from another context,
minus x minus x minus = minus
so 3 minus points are giving one minus point which is not at all logical because it is not showing the extent of negative it can do as it is showing 1 minus point as the result when it has scored 3 minus points.
but if you add up the 3 minus points
minus + minus + minus= 3(minus)
then it's giving 3 minus points which shows the extent of negative the planet can do.

then there is another disadvantage,
if there are 2 minus and 1 plus point then
minus x minus x plus= plus but if you look at the result which is plus it doesn't show the correct picture because 2 minus points means more negative and so the result should be minus and not plus.
but if you use the addition method then
minus + minus + plus= 1(minus). so it is giving a better picture as it is giving the resut as 1 minus point as 1 minus is cancelling against i plus and so 1 minus is the result.

then additional parameters like the functional status of the planets should also be considered which is one of the most important points.

now let me give an example and apply your method and my method. i think it will prove my point.
example1(your method)
Planet Saturn - Natural Malefic - minus
Sign - Libra - Exaltation Sign - plus
House 10th house - favourable - plus
Retrograde - no - so not considering it as a factor as you have said.
Conclusion: minus x plus x plus = minus
Therefore, Saturn in Libra in 10th house is bad.

example1(my method)
Planet Saturn - Natural Malefic - minus
Sign - Libra - Exaltation Sign - plus
House lagna - favourable - plus
Retrograde - no - plus i will give not retrograde a plus point because it will affect the result in my case.
Conclusion: minus + plus + plus + plus = 2(plus)
Therefore, Saturn in Libra in Lagna is good and it get's 2 positive points.

now do you think Saturn the lagna lord getting exalted in the 10th house can be bad as your method is showing it to be? my method is not only showing it is good but it has also given it 2 plus points.

example 2(your method)
Planet Venus - Natural Benefic - plus
Sign - Taurus - Own Sign - plus
House- 5th house - plus
retrograde - yes - minus
Conclusion: plus x plus x plus x minus = minus
Therefore Venus in the 5th house in Taurus is bad

example 2(my method)
Planet Venus - Natural Benefic - plus
Sign - Taurus - Own Sign - plus
House- 5th house - plus
retrograde - yes - minus
Conclusion: plus + plus + plus + minus = 2(plus)
Therefore Venus in the 5th house in Taurus is good and it get's 2 plus points.

now do you think venus the raja yoga karak planet for the capricon lagna placed in the 5th house will do bad just because it is retrograde as your result is showing? my result is not only showing it is good but giving it 2 plus points.

but this method i have used here is also not absolutely correct though the method of calculation should be this. more factors should be added like the functional status of the planets, etc and there should be gradation of plus/minus points like in this case an exalted planet and a planet in it's own house is getting the same points. it should be like this that an exalted planet will get 30 points and a planet in it's own house will get 20 points. there should be a maximum point and the total score will show the strength of the planet in context of that. so these should be used but the main thing is the points should be added and not multiplied.

umaabirami wrote:4th lord Sun is debiliated in 6th in Libra and it is Vargottama.
That means (a) is minus as it is natural malefic (b) is minus as it is debiliated (c) is plus as it is natural malefic in dusta house. Final result is plus so good eventough debiliated Vargottama?


your method has been used in the above mentioned chart.
now do you think 4th lord sun debiliated in 6th house will give good results? sun in the 6th house is not that bad so maybe the negative will be slightly less but still is very negative.
as per my method it will get minus + minus + plus = 1(minus), which i guess gives a better picture of the planetary strength.

maybe you have a strong justification for all this so would wait for your response to this. i am sure you have derived this method after applying them in many charts so sure there must be some basis to it which right now i am overlooking. i will try to understand it and will definitely use it in the charts i have got in my astrodata bank.
Last edited by Basab on Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:02 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Vargotamma planet also Retrograde......effects???

Postby umaabirami » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:02 am

My observation accross charts on Vargottama is.

Depending upon the planet and the house they reside the person is determined (becomes strong) for that house and depending upon the plus/minus they need to work hard for that.

For example: When Moon is Vargottama generally people have clear thinking (not influential), but if it is debiliated it takes time for them to convince their thinking. In Vargottama they can not be influenced to change their thinking. As Vargottama makes detemined for that house.

When there are too many plus then their detemination is accepted and achieved easily else they struggle. But in general Vargottama people stick to the plans they have made/comitted.

When Ascendent is Vargottama overall determined life is what they have.
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Postby astrokinghyd » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:51 am

Dear Basab,
I think we are playing in “roundsâ€
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Postby Basab » Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:22 am

dear Satishji,
you are not getting my point. yes, i agree that i said that the conclusion you had reached in the first 2 examples definitely was correct but when i applied them in some other planetary postions it didn't work out as i had thought.
there are some examples i have given using the method you have used and using the method i have used so do you think the result your method is showing is correct in those cases?

basab wrote: now let me give an example and apply your method and my method. i think it will prove my point.
example1(your method)
Planet Saturn - Natural Malefic - minus
Sign - Libra - Exaltation Sign - plus
House 10th house - favourable - plus
Retrograde - no - so not considering it as a factor as you have said.
Conclusion: minus x plus x plus = minus
Therefore, Saturn in Libra in 10th house is bad.

example1(my method)
Planet Saturn - Natural Malefic - minus
Sign - Libra - Exaltation Sign - plus
House lagna - favourable - plus
Retrograde - no - plus i will give not retrograde a plus point because it will affect the result in my case.
Conclusion: minus + plus + plus + plus = 2(plus)
Therefore, Saturn in Libra in Lagna is good and it get's 2 positive points.

now do you think Saturn the lagna lord getting exalted in the 10th house can be bad as your method is showing it to be? my method is not only showing it is good but it has also given it 2 plus points.

example 2(your method)
Planet Venus - Natural Benefic - plus
Sign - Taurus - Own Sign - plus
House- 5th house - plus
retrograde - yes - minus
Conclusion: plus x plus x plus x minus = minus
Therefore Venus in the 5th house in Taurus is bad

example 2(my method)
Planet Venus - Natural Benefic - plus
Sign - Taurus - Own Sign - plus
House- 5th house - plus
retrograde - yes - minus
Conclusion: plus + plus + plus + minus = 2(plus)
Therefore Venus in the 5th house in Taurus is good and it get's 2 plus points.

now do you think venus the raja yoga karak planet for the capricon lagna placed in the 5th house will do bad just because it is retrograde as your result is showing? my result is not only showing it is good but giving it 2 plus points.


basab wrote:if just one factor is negative then even if an infinite no. of positive factors be there the result will always be negative because
minus x plus x plus x plus x plus x plus = minus


i would like to draw your attention to this line, how do you justify this?


[quote="astrokinghyd"]Example: When I say Saturn in Libra in 5th house, it is understood that the lagna is Gemini – it is also understood that it is lord of 9th and 10th house – and hence it is understood that it is functional benefic. Thus the functional beneficience is taken care – the “who is he and how is heâ€
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Postby Ramya26 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:31 pm

Hi All,

Went throgh the posts..and iam pretty confused...

Pls CLARIFY the presnt case:

Lagna:GEMINI
5th House : Jupiter(Retro) in Swathi star.
The dispositor Venus in in Aries in 11th house aspecting its own house Libra.

Jupiter: Natural Benefic: PLUS
Enimy House:MINUS
Retro: MINUS

As Jupiter attains "kendradhipatya dosha" for Gemini Lagna,Does Functional Malefic status come is also considered?

Is it a Plus x Minus x Minus= PLUS [or] 1PLUS and 2 MINUS so MINUS???
How will Jupiter Mahadasa be???

Please clarify?!

Many thanks,
Ramya
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Postby Ghrishneswar » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:34 am

the best analysis for this has been provided by Visti Larsen on his website srigaruda dot com
[/img]
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Postby astrosdm » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:37 am

Ghrishneswar wrote:the best analysis for this has been provided by Visti Larsen on his website srigaruda dot com
[/img]
Can you please provide the link?

regards
Last edited by astrosdm on Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ghrishneswar » Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:03 am

The forum BB does not allow me to post links. I wil try someother way.
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Postby Ghrishneswar » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:05 pm

the link is

srigaruda dot com slash visti slash index dot php slash publications slash articles slash 89-retr
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Postby astrosdm » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:16 am

Ghrishneswar wrote:the link is

srigaruda dot com slash visti slash index dot php slash publications slash articles slash 89-retr


Grateful that you so kindly remembered. Much appreciated!!

regards
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