Celebrities Anonymous...

For discussion on planets, houses, signs, nakshatras, etc.
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manderin

Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by manderin » 04 Nov 2011

Ok I will add a celebrity's birth info. Because I grew up with this now relatively famous person, I have the actual birth time of this celebrity and it is not available anywhere else online.

Born April 13, 1976, at 4:50 AM in Tokyo Japan.



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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Ghrishneswar » 05 Nov 2011

explorings wrote:I am also getting Matibrahma Yoga: moon and mars afflicted by two malefics.

Before I go crazy, I am eager to know what on earth is wrong with that chart and celebrity... :roll:

I feel I have lost my energy completely!
That is what debilitated planets do to you.

Neecha planets work differently.


Instant name/fame is never their hallmark. Let me try today before you reveal celebrity.
Regards,

Ghrishneswar

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Ghrishneswar » 05 Nov 2011

Very interesting chart. I will try to focus on why this person is a celebrity.
I may be totally off but that is how you learn.

2 planets that make this chart are Moon and Ju. Moon is Ak and is in Ju's naksatra.
Moon is has digbala in 4th house.

JU is trines in pisces is awesome. This Ju is very good from Dhana perspective and intelligence.

Let us see Sa..it owner of 3H and 4H and debilitated in 6H.Sa in 6th is not bad as it is apsecting all malefic houses. 8H, 12H and 3H and sitting in 6H.
Sa is destroying your all trik houses and a mild malefic 3H. That is 6H position for Sa is not considered too bad. Sa is performing VRY role here.
Ma is also owner of 6H and is debiliated. This is again good from VRY perpective.
6H is totally destroyed. Occupied be neecha Sa and dispositor Ma also neecha.
This chart has VRY coming from 6H. For VRY you do need unfortunate event to trigger rajayoga. A misfortune had to happen and it had to come from 6H or 8H. Disesase and death like situation- maran tulya kashta.

Lagnesha debilitated is not good at all, diseased is what it is. It association with Me owner of 8H and 11H points to research capabilities and shows immense suffering too.
Another important point is see planets in 8H. Su, ke and Ve. The focus of this chart is turning to 8H. Again pointing to suffering and research capabilities.
Preseverance, ability to tide through crisis, misfortune and final triumph over them is the theme of this chart.

7H is no doubt destroyed by papakartari yoga.
The rasi chart is hinged on 6H, 8H, Ju and and Moon.
Ju and Moon are very good for this chart.

Shilpa has pionted to D9 strength. Avery important point about D9 is the more planets you have aspecting D9 lagna the greater its strength. Moon and Sa togather in 10th is great for career.
Moon exalted in D9 with Sa. Now Moon is AK. Exalted AK in D9 in kendra is very good.

Ju is good as it also exalted in D10. This Ju is really great though children wise it is not so great.

This person must have been some famous researcher in her field who must have overcome great misfortune.
Is this person some famous researcher in any particular field?
Regards,

Ghrishneswar

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by explorings » 05 Nov 2011

Ghrishneswar wrote:
explorings wrote:I am also getting Matibrahma Yoga: moon and mars afflicted by two malefics.

Before I go crazy, I am eager to know what on earth is wrong with that chart and celebrity... :roll:

I feel I have lost my energy completely!
That is what debilitated planets do to you.

Neecha planets work differently.


Instant name/fame is never their hallmark. Let me try today before you reveal celebrity.

I know but the native also shows Vipreet Raj Yoga which gives sudden fame after an unfortunate event so the debilitated planets should give instant fame but all I can decipher is diseases and disorders.

Shilpaji's and your perspectives are very valid! I can now see whats going on with the chart :shock:

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by shilpa » 05 Nov 2011

explorings wrote:
I know but the native also shows Vipreet Raj Yoga which gives sudden fame after an unfortunate event so the debilitated planets should give instant fame but all I can decipher is diseases and disorders.
Shilpaji's and your perspectives are very valid! I can now see whats going on with the chart :shock:
Hindsight and knowledge of end results are great tools :)
If we hadn't know that he is a celebrity......many of us wouldn't have looked beyond the disease and debility in that chart
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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Saindhavi » 05 Nov 2011

I am quite amazed to see the readings! It says something about how accurately astrology can predict without any knowledge about the native and it also reflects the astrological skills of the people reading this chart.

Well, the theory of becoming famous because of illness and struggle after illness is so very right! This chart belongs to -

Image


Hellen Keller! :D

In February 1881, she suffered from a life-threatening fever, which the doctors couldn't diagnose at that time. Now it is believed it may have been Scarlet fever or Meningitis. She survived the illness, but became blind, deaf and mute for life.

However, she struggled through life to learn to speak, read and write, went to the university - a rare achievement in those days even for women without disability, ended up writing about 40 books, travelled across the world, met heads of States and became a champion for the cause of the handicapped people.

She never married. I don't know about her wealth situation. Perhaps later in life she did accumulate money as well. Nothing has been said about her rheumatism or other illnesses. But since she lived till the age of 80, it's quite possible she may have suffered from rheumatism and other illnesses as well.

As has been read above, hers was a life of struggle, but her condition and struggle have made her a celebrity for ever. Films, books and biographies have been inspired by her life.

Hers is a classic case that it's possible to overcome the worst misfortune and rise above the normal, against all odds. And yes, Jupiter seems to play a large role in her chart. I wonder if without that Jupiter she could have risen to such heights.

If you see her Dasha period, she had her fever when she was going through Jupiter-Ketu. In her chart, Sun the source of light and the signifier of soul is almost at the same degree as Ketu. Perhaps this played a role in her blindness and other disabilities, in addition to what has been said above.

All of you have been so close to the reality in your reading of her chart, it's amazing! :)

We have a chart contributed by Mandarin to work on. I'll take some time. Till then, others can try and discuss Hellen Keller more if they like.
Last edited by Saindhavi on 05 Nov 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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hymns -

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2 http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11446&start=75#p93038

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by shilpa » 05 Nov 2011

I am quite amazed to see the readings! It says something about how accurately astrology can predict without any knowledge about the native and it also reflects the astrological skills of the people reading this chart
Dear saindhavi,

thx for revealing....so it's not a he but a she.......i was almost tempted to name Stephen Hawking except that he was born much later.

it helps to know that the horoscope is a celebrity....so we forec ourselves to look for signs of greatness....and hence find them !!

I would like to contribute a modern day young Indian celebrity:

17.10.1970; 9:40am; 77E35, 12N59
1हनुमान2अंजनीसुत3वायुपुत्र4महाबल5रामेष्ट6फाल्गुनसखा7पिंगाक्ष8अमितविक्रम9उदधिक्रमण10सीताशोकविनाशन 11लक्षमणप्राणदाता12दशग्रीवदर्पहा

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by shilpa » 05 Nov 2011

The one theory that Hellen Keller's chart confirms:
is for creative talents type celebrities, Navamsa is the evidence to greatness...more than the Rasi chart
1हनुमान2अंजनीसुत3वायुपुत्र4महाबल5रामेष्ट6फाल्गुनसखा7पिंगाक्ष8अमितविक्रम9उदधिक्रमण10सीताशोकविनाशन 11लक्षमणप्राणदाता12दशग्रीवदर्पहा

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by explorings » 05 Nov 2011

Dear Saindhaviji:

OMG no wonder I was seeing all possible afflictions to eyes and other disorders. She also had a protruding left eye. Most of the diseases at that time were still unknown even scarlet fever and meningitis.
shilpa wrote:
Hindsight and knowledge of end results are great tools :)
If we hadn't know that he is a celebrity......many of us wouldn't have looked beyond the disease and debility in that chart
Completely agree... after seeing a well learned and intelligent possibilities I started looking for great things and literally hunting for possibilities that could give rise to fame.

Phew! That was a googly for me!

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Saindhavi » 05 Nov 2011

Yes, even I wouldn't have looked beyond the afflicted and debilitated planets. :)

So we have 2 charts to work on now - one given by Mandarin and the other by Shilpa. It will take me a couple of days. Please wait for me before revealing the identities. Meanwhile, others can work on them.
Havan Manuals -

http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12791&p=124553#p124488

hymns -

1 http://www.vignanam.org/

2 http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11446&start=75#p93038

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Saindhavi » 08 Nov 2011

Chart given by Mandarin -

April 13, 1976
4:50 AM
Tokyo Japan


I'm getting Pisces Lagna.

This chart has strong planetary placements, which will lead the native to great heights. Lagna is exalted by Venus and Lagna lord Jupiter is well placed in 2nd house, aspecting its own house of career. Jupiter Mahadasha beginning in March 2013 will take this native to even greater heights.

There are many combinations of wealth in this chart and hence, the native is enjoying a wealthy life. Jupiter, Sun and Venus give the native an attractive and resplendent personality. Rahu and Ketu are benefic in this chart, giving the native wealth and property. Most probably, this native should engage in business.

Sun in Lagna gives him/her a powerful position. However, Sun is in transition zone at 29.30 degrees. hence, Sun's periods will give power but will also cause problems in profession to the native.

Mars is malefic and may cause domestic problems to the native and also health problems to mother. But Mars is benefic for career and finances. Hence, Mars periods will be good for career and wealth but bad for home front. Mars may have caused breaks in marriage(s).

Both Saturn and Mars aspect Moon, which is not good for the emotional health of the native and for the mother.

There may be problems in romantic and intellectual ventures because Saturn obstructs the 5th house and 5th lord Moon is aspected by Mars and Saturn. Saturn causes problems in family and health problems related to mouth, throat, eye etc. It may also lead to financial loss or excessive expenditures.

Currently, the native is running Rahu-Moon which is bad because Moon is afflicted by Mars and Saturn. Rahu Mahadasha has given wealth and success in business to the native, but it may have caused other health problems. Rahu-Mars is not likely to be good either. Jupiter Mahadasha will take the native to great heights and will set problems right.

Chart given by Shilpa -

17.10.1970
9:40am
77E35, 12N59


I'm getting Scorpio lagna.

Exalted Moon gives benefic partnerships in profession. 12th lord Venus further reinforces partnerships from abroad by aspecing 7th house. Rahu is benefic for domestic matters. Rahu and Saturn give property to the native.

Lagna lord Mars gives wealth and intellectual pursuits to the native. This native should engage in sports, health and medicine or energy-related disciplines. Jupiter Mahadasha has started in 2009 and the native should have risen in profession in this Mahadasha, though may be saddled with excessive workload.

There are also many problms in this chart. Saturn causes problems to the native and increases his/her struggles. Sun, though well-placed is in transition zone at 29.56 degrees. Hence, Sun will create problems in financial pursuits and will not be able to give full effect. Mercury is exalted, but partially combust and hence, can't give full effect of exaltation either. Ketu creates problems in career.

All Sun, Ketu, Saturn periods will be problematic. This native has done well only because of Mars and Moon.

Saturn also causes health problems.

Last edited by Saindhavi on 09 Nov 2011, edited 2 times in total.
Havan Manuals -

http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12791&p=124553#p124488

hymns -

1 http://www.vignanam.org/

2 http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11446&start=75#p93038

shikham

Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by shikham » 09 Nov 2011

Hi Saindhavi,

The thread should not have mentioned the word celebrities..it is easy to know whose birth details they belong it by just typing the details on google... :oops:

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Saindhavi » 09 Nov 2011

Shikham,

You've missed the point completely. :D

The entire fun of this thread lies in honestly trying to read the charts without attempting to find the identities via Google.

If you have faith in yourself, you'll read it without trying to get details via Google.

So, do you have faith in yourself? Can you read the above 2 charts without seeing Google first? - that is the entire purpose of this thread.

Try to read 2 charts given above and see what you get - and don't cheat on Google. :twisted:
Last edited by Saindhavi on 10 Nov 2011, edited 1 time in total.
Havan Manuals -

http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12791&p=124553#p124488

hymns -

1 http://www.vignanam.org/

2 http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11446&start=75#p93038

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by explorings » 10 Nov 2011

Agree with Saindhaviji... tht's not the point of this thread to cross-check on Google. Actually, using the word "Celebrities" may lead to us to use pre-determined subsets to read the chart. I did that mistake with Keller's chart when I started hunting for Raj-yogas and other combinations and got lost when I saw debilitated planets... but I guess I learnt from it.

I will be sending my readings on the above 2 charts this w/e... have to take care of several issues at work lately... wait for me

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Hina » 10 Nov 2011

Chart posted by Shilpa,

Moon 9L exalted and aspecting Lagna is the pillar of this chart. 3rd & 4th L deb. in 6th house is vipareet rajyoga as well as neechbhanga raj yoga as venus in Lagna. This person just finished Rahu dasha- must have been extremely troublesome with major ups & downs. The 4th house represents education, mother, domestic life. The dispositor deb. - must have been a bad period. however, sat here has destroyed all other trik houses. Also, Sat as 3L in 6th house is vipareet rajyoga. Again 3L Saturn aspects its own house.

Sun is vargottam & also AK. Is this person associated with politics or administration in governance? There is association with Mars as well- is the person engaged in enforcement as well? LL & 10L togeather in 11th house- rajyoga
Rahu in aquarius- humanitaran?
Very good looking spouse- 7L protects own house. Self- good looking too.
Rajyogas in 11 th house but marred by powerful 8L & 12L. Has suffered from controversies from time to time.

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Hina » 10 Nov 2011

Chart posted by Manderin

Moon aspected by a lot of planets good from Jaimini perspective.

Person known in his field of work. 6l & 8L in lagna- rajyoga? 8L Venus exalted in Lagna. ALso dispositor of Rahu. Does inheritance play a big role in his life? I think somehow, the 2nd house is very important in this person's life. Maybe his family. Yogakarak Mars also in 4th house. Sun & Saturn vargottam. Exchange between 2nd & 4th Lords.

There seems to be a Martian influence in his life- aspecting his 10th house, both from Parashari & Jaimini.

Regarding profession- Jupiter & Mercury seem to be huge influence. Mars aspects too. Can't figure out.
Last edited by Hina on 12 Nov 2011, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Dev » 10 Nov 2011

Chart given by Shilpa -

17.10.1970
9:40am
77E35, 12N59

I think the 9th lord exalted in 7th asoecting the lagna should give very high fame and prosperity to the person.
Also, since the 9th house has highest astavarga and also the 9th lord moon has highest istaphala, the person must be extremely lucky I feel.
Also must be soft spoken and feminine due to venus and moon effects.
May be involved in several affairs though.
Health problems seen from saturn.
Rahu in 4th might have not given good studies.
Conjunction of lagna, 10th and 11th lords could have given lot of income and profits.
There could be several ups and downs in family happiness.
The person could be very sweet tongued though not very genuine and may have several health issues.
Could have problems in married life or in marriage itself.
may not have courage, may have issues with coborns
This is what I feel from this horo.
Dev

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Saindhavi » 10 Nov 2011

Thanks, Hina and Devji,

Explorings, ok we are waiting for you.
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http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12791&p=124553#p124488

hymns -

1 http://www.vignanam.org/

2 http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11446&start=75#p93038

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by map » 10 Nov 2011

The chart given by Shilpa ji:
17.10.1970
9:40am
77E35, 12N59
No problems in married life. Good Professional status. Relations with father excellent.
With mother somewhat strained. Poor longevity is seen (IMO).

regards
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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by shilpa » 11 Nov 2011

Dear all,

--That is Anil Kumble...India's highest wicket taker, and captain from end of 2007 until end of Oct 2008

--Thanks for your analysis...many people have been quite accurate in their observations.
Perosnally I found this chart hard to decipher.

--9th Lord Moon exalted in the 7th appears like the pillar of this chart......and it is with an excpetionally high amsabala of 6 in dasavarga also....implies...Moon gives him all round support.
his captaincy of India conincided with the Anatara of Moon in the MD of Rahu.
9th is the hosue of long distance / overseas trvael and 7th is the house of foreign connections...and Moon is also the karak of foreing journeys.......all those togtether explaining successes coming also from foreign lands/ international levels.

--But Rahu has also done him good.....his selection in Indian team and almost his entire career coincided with the Rahu MD.
In hindsight it is easier to analyse why:

Rahus in Kumbh is strong by house placement...what many consider swakshetra for Rahu...more importantly it is in the nakshtra of Mars...which is sitting in the 11th house of wish-fullfilment.

Mars is lagna (1st) Lord, in conjunction with close friend, Sun (10th Lord).....forming Rajyoga...and Rahu is acting like Mars.
so Rahu period has been strong...with the crown of captaincy coming in Rahu-Moon period .

--In between 1999-2002 was a purple patch of his career during exalted Me's MD.

--the end of Rahu MD, kinda finished his career as an active cricketer...but he came in administration.

--Married life kinda baffles me a bit.

he married a woman older, not exceptionally beautiful either,
a divorcee with a child that he helped his wife in a court case for to get the custody of her daughter from the ex-husband.

--maybe navamsa has a clue?......shani conjunct with navamsa lagna aspects the 7th house and 7th lord Me is in enemy Moon's sign in the 8th house conjunct with marriage karak Venus.

--lagna and 4th lord Jup is rather strong in navamsa.....in swakshetra.

strong 1st house ( whihc is a trinal house) in D9 does make the perosn multi-talented


regards
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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Saindhavi » 11 Nov 2011

Thanks, Shilpa!

I thought there was a strong chance of him being a sportsperson and I mentioned it. In Jupiter Mahadasha he is going to be in administration, that's right.

You are right, Lagna chart doesn't give the clue of that kind of marriage, unless it's a very happy one and perhaps we have to understand his 7th and 2nd house significations as a very happy marriage. Navansha adds to it an older wife with a child, coming through court case as you have described.

Explorings, you still have the chart given by Manderin to work on. And perhaps you can add to Anil Kumble's chart something you see.
Havan Manuals -

http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12791&p=124553#p124488

hymns -

1 http://www.vignanam.org/

2 http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11446&start=75#p93038

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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by explorings » 12 Nov 2011

April 13, 1976
@ 4:50 AM
Tokyo Japan

Pisces Ascendant. LL and 10L is well-placed in 2nd house of wealth. Gain through hard work in matters related to land, industrious activities, trade, or govt affairs.

Lagna has friendly Sun and exalted Venus. Native is blessed with good features and will be very wealthy. Sun in Lagna indicates power and authority. Venus in Pisces gives secret affairs. Native may gain from women, spouse, and through relations and affairs.

Mars in 4th house indicates, native may be involved in some kind of real estate business or in matters related to land. Also indicates, native will own his own property and conveyances. However, this placement of Mars is in inimical sign of Mercury indicating some tiff in domestic life and matters of residence. Native’s mother will suffer during Mars and moon periods. Native is also Mangalik thus confirming problems in domestic life. Ra/Ke on 2/8 axis further indicates marital unhappiness. Mars and Saturn aspect 7th house, delays in marriages and marital unhappiness. In navamsa, venus is with ketu, some separation with spouse is possible. Mars and Saturn also aspect 5th lord Moon placed in 7th house, indicating some issues with progeny and romantic affairs.

One thing good of this chart is all three lords of dushtana are well-placed in trikonas. Native will eventually conquer over enemies, diseases, loses, and miseries.

Native is currently running Ra MD. Ra and Ke are well placed and may give sudden gains in career, profession, and money wise however may have caused some turmoil in marital/domestic life. Native may have experienced some glorious years during ‘97-‘01 and ‘06-10. Currently, native is running last leg of moon and then mars AD and may face some mental anxieties in career and domestic life. Problems in domestic front may have increased from May 2011 to current (Nov 2011). As Jupiter moves to Aries and does not shine some benefic aspect on Saturn (transiting through 7th house). Relief in matters will be seen after Nov 15, 2011 and will completely disappear after May 2012.

Native will see glorious days again in Jupiter MD. Native will achieve some remarkable landmarks in Jupiter MD.

manderin

Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by manderin » 12 Nov 2011

I am just amazed by the conclusions that you guys have come up with! They are so specific to this person! The only thing no one has mentioned was his beautiful vocal abilities.

The celebrity is Glenn Howerton- An American actor who is now both starring in and producing a popular Television series that has gone on for 7 years.

Born in Japan and grew up in various countries due to his father being in the military. He was still a child at 10 years old when the family settled in the USA. That is when we first met. A good looking child who grew up to be a very good looking teenager. In highschool he was popular and all the ladies found him very handsome. He would play around with heavy illegal drugs, from time to time but never to the point of addiction. Liked by the teachers in school. Liked by the students as well. Has always had good luck with his friends. He did not always seem genuine to me, however he always seemed very nice and appeared to be a master at telling those around him exactly what they wanted to hear. This did get him into trouble with the ladies once in a while as he was not always honest with them in highschool. He always had many friends who would visit him and who would help him and he genuinely enjoyed the company of people. Enjoyed get-togethers and parties. Enjoyed sports and would especially love playing basketball- his favorite sport growing up. Sometimes he would say that he felt he would lose his mind if he could not do a physical activity at least several times a week. He was very much into the arts, and amazed everyone with both his dramatic and singing talent. Everyone told him that with his good looks and talents he should become an actor and he finally decided to take this advice, but he didn't become very ambitious about it until the end of 1995. He then flew to NYC and became one of the chosen to go to the most prestigious dramatic arts school in the country- and that was the last I saw of him until I saw him in a movie by surprise years later.

In 2005 a friend of his decided to write a show and asked Glenn to both star in it and produce it along side him. Glenn of coarse accepted and the show has grown to be very successful since then. Though he had already done several movies and starred in a tv show before this, this show which began in 2005 is what truly made him a celebrity and made him famous enough to appear in tv talk shows.

Those of you who said he was to have a very handsome spouse were also correct. He married a model/dancer in 2009. However It is too soon to say whether he will have problems with his progeny as he only became a father for the first time 2 months ago. I will try to post an old photo of him here. My first time posting photos so I hope it works.
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manderin

Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by manderin » 12 Nov 2011

Glenn Howerton Celebrity more recent photo.
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Saindhavi
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Re: Celebrities Anonymous...

Post by Saindhavi » 12 Nov 2011

Thanks, Manderin.

Venus exalted in the Ascendant can lead to success in either financial field or in the art forms. I went for financial field, but I should have known better, that exalted Venus with an attractive personality can lead the native to acting and singing! :)

Saturn and Mars aspecting Moon may have caused his experimentations with drugs. Mars gives his father a military profession. I wonder if there is some problem to the mother.

It must have been an unusual experience, growing up with an attractive boy who later became a celebrity! 8)

OK, here is a chart to work on -

15th November 1986

Bombay

Time of birth as given by the native's mother - 14.30pm


Many astrologers feel that this time of birth doesn't reflect the life of this native. They precede the time to 11.28am, because they feel that chart suits the life of the native.

However, we have to work with this time of birth i.e., 14.30pm, since it has been given by the mother.

So, read it and see what you get. :roll:

Havan Manuals -

http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12791&p=124553#p124488

hymns -

1 http://www.vignanam.org/

2 http://www.lightonvedicastrology.com/phpBB3_0/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=11446&start=75#p93038

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