The 2nd-12th House Relationship : Something to Think About

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Khoo Hock Leong
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The 2nd-12th House Relationship : Something to Think About

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 26 Mar 2009

Hi

Is the 2nd-12th house relationship good or bad? This is one of the more difficult questions in astrological lore. To put the question succintly, if a planet ruling a particular house is placed in the 12th to that house is it considered a good placement?

On the one hand the 12th to the 12th for a Dusthana is considered good just like the 12th to a non-Dusthana house (especially trinal) is considered bad. 12th to a house signifies the negation of the latter house so in the case of a Dusthana (-ve) (-ve) means (+plus) and for a non-Dusthana (-ve)(+plus) gives (-ve) which is bad.

But the planet when placed in a particular house and ruling the house next to it (in an anticlockwise direction) gives beneficial effects to the house in which it is placed. This is because the house which it rules is 2nd to the house which it is placed. So that is good.

One example is Jupiter ruling the 9th is placed in the 8th for a Cancer Ascendant. It is bad because Jupiter is placed 12th to the 9th and also in the 8th which is a Dusthana. The House of Good Luck (9th) is spoilt. But at the same time the 8th is fortified as the 9th is the 2nd to the 8th. The person is good with predictive skills using astrology, for example. Added to that in this case is that Jupiter is comfortable in the 12th House to any house (especially spiritual matters). So Jupiter in the 8th is good. And it is a trinal lord. Trinal lords whereever it is placed it is good. I have this placement in my chart with Jupiter being Bhava Vargottama.

The 12th house to any house signifies the person has reached an evolved state related to the affairs ruled by the latter house. For example, the 7th is the 12th to the 8th. Not only would it negate the 8th house effects, but the person has reached a state of perfect harmony with others (if the good planetary indicators in the 7th are there) and there is a lack of strife unlike the 8th. Similarly the 11th which is the 12th of the 12th is considered a house where gains exceed expenses and gains are a form of negative expenses. This is the kind of expenses we like!!!!

For the Sun and Moon its 12th house to where they are placed has added signficance causing certain Yogas. Why the extra benefits in the case of the Sun and Moon? They are royal planets and the 12th house signifiying an evolved state of being means the royalty has reached an exalted stage. Also the King and Queen would like a left hand man (and not just a right hand man only).

Very old astrological texts say that when Jupiter is placed 6th, 8th or 12th to the Moon it is bad as the planet of fortune (Jupiter) is existing in a bad house placement relationship with the planet of mundane affairs (the Moon). But Jupiter functioning as the left hand man of the Moon is good as mentioned earlier.

Also old astrological texts say that when the Moon is placed 12th to Jupiter is also bad. It is just like there is a loss of fortune (Jupiter) related to mundane affairs. But here Jupiter is functioning as the right hand man of the Moon and it is good.

In fact for any house (whether empty or not), if it is flanked by benefics on both sides it becomes good. This is so even if the aide is in its 12th House placement to the said house and especially Venus and Jupiter. These two planets like 12th House placements even if it happens to rule the particular house in question.

Thanks.

Hock Leong



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Clarifying Earlier Post on Saturn Affecting the Next House

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 27 Mar 2009

Hi

Now I want to clarify my earlier thread where I said that Saturn placed anywhere in the chart would always affect the house after it and it does it POORLY.

Why?

Well in the context of this post, you will notice that any planet placed in a house, the following house is its primary agarla. And the 2nd house to that house is always the one that provides the basic resources for the latter house to survive. Take Venus in the 1st. The person wants to provide a pleasing disposition and one way is to dress up well. Venus would make use of the next house (in this case the 2nd house) to dress up well to provide a pleasing personality. This making use of resources in the next house is stronger if Venus also happens to be the ruler of the 2nd house when it is placed in the 1st house which is the context for the discussion of this post.

Now we come to Saturn. I always believe that the significator when placed in that house is very strong. It is stronger than a planet whose natural abode for a house and is also happened to be placed there. So for example, Jupiter does well in 12th but Saturn being the signficator for the 12th is even stronger in the 12th (we are now talking about houses not signs). Planets which are strong in a house by virtue of being the significator of that house MAKES USE OF ITS ARGALA HOUSES VERY STRONGLY.

Hence when Saturn is placed in a house, it is the 12th to another house and hence its effect on the latter house would be very strong as that house is its Argala with respect to the house in which it is placed where it is significator. So to make the example concrete the last time someone asked me about this (forgot his name) his Saturn was placed in the 5th House. I told him that Saturn would spoil the creativity needed in the 5th by adopting the systematic techniques of the 6th to achieve creativity. Because creativity is supposed to be free flow.

What happened is that Saturn being the significator of any 12th house, has very strong effects on the 6th when placed in the 5th. Saturn usually does poorly in things (not like the Sun, Moon, Mars, Venus - all the innards residing in the palace or Jupiter - shutting himself in the study room of the palace. Saturn is wandering in the palace grounds). And because it is found on the 5th and has strong effects on the 6th, in the end it does poorly on both the 5th and the 6th.

Hope the above clarifies my earlier post.

Thanks.

Hock Leong

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Post by rajitha » 30 Mar 2009

Khoo Hock,
I am sorry that I could not understand the Saturn part properly. Could you further elaborate, please.

Also, I have Jupiter in my 9th house (Aquarius). So, Jupiter is in 12th to Pisces (my 10th house with Moon).
Can you explain how this works?
Does retrogression make any difference here?

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Reply to Rajitha

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 30 Mar 2009

Hi Rajitha

I will explain your 2nd question first.

Any planet 12th to Moon causes Chandra Anapha Yoga. There are many different kinds of Chandra Anapha Yoga depending on what is the planet involved. In the case of Jupiter, it gives the following :

[quote]

Endowed with strength and virtue, energetic, learned, honored by the king, a poet, wealthy, opposed to his near & dear.

[unquote]

The 12th house to a royal planet serves as the left hand man. The difference between a left hand man and a right hand man is this. Let's say you are a manager of a bank. Then your right hand man is the bank customer service representative supervisor for the front end counter. He is like the 2nd house to you. Any immediate problems he will tackle to the best of his knowledge. Your left hand man is your back room consultant. In case the aforesaid mentioned problem gets escalated becuase the supervisor cannot solve it, he will take over and apply his expertise to it. He is the one who has been with you the longest, so he understands the working style of you and the operations of the bank.

In your case Jupiter ruling your career is in the 9th House. You are not particularly ambitious for power (9th house is the 12th to the 10th). But Jupiter being in the 9th and ruling 10th means you use whatever fame that you earned to do philanthropic deeds so that you gain yourself a name as someone who does good (the fame for the 9th is dfferent from the fame for the 10th). Hence the 9th benefits even though the 10th suffers. However, because 9th is a trinal house, the affairs of the 10th house gets a boost more than it suffers in this case. So all round, you get a NETT PLUS.

With Jupiter gaining its wisdom from the said interaction between the 9th and 10th houses just mentioned, it will then serve as advisor as the Moon on all matters related to the 10th house. Jupiter is a born guru and he makes a good adviser from the 12th to that house. Moon wants fame and popularity and will seek Jupiter's advice on how this can be done. But one caveat. Jupiter gives better advice to the Sun more than the Moon. Jupiter is the natural karaka (assistant) for the Sun. Not so for the Moon. Thus the advice given may be less.

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I will now answer your 1st question.

Saturn in general is the significator of the 6th, 8th or 12th to any house. So if Saturn is placed in House A. It means it would be a significator for House A with reference to House (A+1). This means it would damage the affairs of House (A+1) more than any other planet.

But Saturn when placed in House A has as its Argala Houses
House (A+1), House (A+3), House (A+10) (2nd, 4th and 11th to any House). House (A+1) is in fact its basic resource house in relation to where it is placed which is House (A). So Saturn would try to make use of House (A+1) to further its objectives in House (A) - of course everybody would take care of its own house first.
But Saturn is ranked in the pantheon of planets to give results which is not so good except when it is very well placed. After all it is a servant. So it also does poorly in House (A).

So it ends up doing badly both for House (A) and House (A+1).

Assuming Saturn also rules House (A+1) when placed in House (A). Then the doing badly for both houses the link would even be tighter. Previously the link is based on only the house ordering. Now the link is based on lordship as well.

Thanks.

Hock Leong

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Post by nrjtrvd » 01 Apr 2009

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Post by rajitha » 01 Apr 2009

Thanks for explaining Jupiter's role. That was really something new/
My other question there was whether retrogression is a factor?


Reg. Saturn, I am now clear. But, they say that Saturn cannot spoil the fruits of it's own houses. So, why do you say that if Saturn lords over A & A+1, significations of both houses will be bad?

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Reply to Rajitha

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 02 Apr 2009

Hi Rajitha

Planets in retrogression are strong but in a different way. In your case for Jupiter :

(1) Jupiter becomes more spiritual. In the 9th house may lead you to be more philanthropic or to seek spiritual matters whole heartedly. But you must learn to discriminate.

(2) Jupiter rules the sense organ the ear and the work organ the mouth (speech). May have to brush up your listening and speaking skills to attain your objectives. As Jupiter rules the 7th house and 10th house, this may be related to your spouse if you are married or best firend or those in authority.

(3) It enhances the advice Jupiter gives to the Moon as it is 12th to the Moon and the 12th to a house concerns the spirituality of that house and that is Jupiter's natural abode. Generally you be may known as quite an easy going person.

(4) A retrogade planet which has relationship with the 2nd house lord (in your case is the Moon) or significator or the 7th house lord or significator will result in delay with eastablishing a family (2nd house) or settling down (7th house). The first case applies to you and Jupiter is ruling your 7th House.

(5) You may be unconventional in how you see the big picture (for some people, if the retrogade Jupiter is poorly placed they may not see the big picture at all) or other qualities represented by Jupiter. For example, you may go for the details first and work yourself up to the top level rather than establishing higher level concepts to categorise ideas.

With regards to your question on Saturn :

It is true that Saturn gives you the fruits of your labour but like any planet, it has to be well placed. Also if it is well placed, and if we compare it say with a well placed Sun, and choose a neutral Kendra house for both, say the 4th House, I would still say it is better to have a well placed Sun than a well placed Saturn. After all the overall controller of the Treasury is the Sun (although Jupiter fills in the role of the Treasurer).

If Shani also steps in a Sign or house and is slightly unfavorable to the native, this planetary state of Shani according to Vedic Astrology is termed as Shani's Paya.

According to Vedic Astrology, when Shani steps in the first , sixth or eleventh houses in your birth-chart, Shani will have much favorable impact on your prospects. Due to this positive fact, the foot of Shani is termed Shani's Paya of gold. In this planetary state of Shani, the native will get ample wealth, acquire material comforts and earn popularity.

(But the 1st house is also Shani's Marana Karaka Stanth).

If Shani enters in the second, fifth or ninth Sign in your birth-chart (Janam kundali), your fortune will be normal. This will the state of Shani's Silver Paya. In this state of Shani, you will not just earn money but problems and difficulties will remain miles away from you. And if you take all your activities sincerely, you might get desirable benefit.

If Shani in your birth-chart is in the third, seventh or tenth place, it will be Shani's third Paya. In this planetary state of Shani, your financial condition will be sound and strong.

Since, you expenditure might be relatively much. So, the third Paya of Shani is of bronze (Tamba). In this planetary state of Shani, the native's prospects will be mixed. It means, the native will not just enjoy happiness and comforts, he may also have to face difficulties.

If Shani in the birth chart of a native is featured in the fourth , eighth or twelfth house, the native may have to tackle economic or financial problems. Since he might also face some health related ailments, if he take certain necessary measures, he will be able to overcome all of them easily. This stage of Shani is called Shani's Iron Paya.

Since Shani in the last stage may have a negative impact on the native in terms of job or business, he needs to take adequate steps to avoid any such eventuality.

So in this context of this post, we are talking about Saturn being 12th to House (A+1), but 1st to House (A). The latter is supposed to be good as stated by you but see the qualification I made earlier on Saturn being Marana Karaka Stanth in the 1st.

So it also depends on many factors whether a planet would give results, like one of the factors which I just described which is the House from the Lagna position. But in general, Saturn gives less than beneficial results compared to other planets although Saturn as the significator of the 10th house rules Karma, good or bad, and if you put in the effort, you would reap the rewards.

Thanks.

Hock Leong
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Reply to Nrjtrvd

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 02 Apr 2009

Hi Nrjtrvd

I would reply in the context of this post.

On House (A)
---------------

Saturn's placement in the 11th house of Lagna is good (see my reply to Rajitha on Saturn's Paya - which is gold in this case). This overwrites what I mentioned to Rajitha in the context of Saturn's placement in House (A) where it is a Marana Karaka Stanth.

On top of that Saturn is well placed in Gemini.

Saturn ruling 7th placed in the 11th gives immense wealth if the native enters into business. It beats even the Sun in giving riches - the Sun is not a 'business' planet however much it is the king.

On House (A+1)
-------------------

House (A+1) - the 12th House to Lagna - in this case is under Cancer. Cancer is Saturn's enemy. Saturn is placed 12th to this House (A+1).

From the reference point of House (A+1) this is Saturn's worst placement (the 4th Paya mentioned above and also Saturn is the significator of the 12th to any House) exacerbated by Cancer being enemy of Saturn. So the affairs of House (A+1) would definitely not do well. But this House is the 12th to Lagna and hence a Dusthana House. So if it does not do well it cancels its negative effects.

Further the 12th of the 12th is a higher octave of the 12th which is the 11th (from the point of view of Lagna) which further cancels the 12th House to Lagna bad effects. So again it gives very good results.

Hence with Saturn in Gemini in the 11th, it actually gives very good results to both House (A) and House (A+1).

Thanks.

Hock Leong

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Post by sunsri » 02 Apr 2009

Hi Hock Leong,

How will Saturn be for this chart. Ascendant is Taurus. Has Saturn, Moon and Ketu in 2nd House Gemini. Jupiter is debilitated in Capri(9th house).

Wil start Saturn Mahadasha in July 2010.

DOB: July 27, 1973
TOB: 03:10AM IST
POB: Madurai, TamilNadu, India(Coordinates: 9°54'40"N 78°7'10"E )


Thanks in advance
S

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Post by nrjtrvd » 02 Apr 2009

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Replies

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 02 Apr 2009

Hi

Reply to Rajitha :

For your Jupiter retrogression, you may want to consider it making aspects from the previous house to where it is placed now as well. This means that it makes full aspects on the 8th house to lagna, 4th house to lagna, 12th house to lagna and 2nd house to lagna from its current position of 9th house to lagna. It does not mean that your Jupiter is in the 8th house to lagna. But since retrogression is not the main subject of this post, I did not want to elaborate on the concept of retrogression aspects.

Reply to nrjtvd :

Yes, it does mean that for Saturn in Gemini in the 11th, it would impede chances of liberation. The person should concentrate on making money instead.

For your Mars in Cancer in its fall, having mutal exception with Moon in Scorpio also in its fall, and each is in each other's sign, this would affect cancel the debilitation effects. So the effect is not so bad because the debilitation is cancelled. But because the mutual reception is between a Dusthana and non-Dusthana house, the bad effects of the Dusthana house gets spilled over to the 4th house. 4th house deals with security and happiness. 12th house deals with loose boundaries. So you may have search harder for these aspects of the 4th house although your success rate is high because the 12th is the 9th to the 4th.

There is no 12th-2nd house relationship here.

Reply to Sunsri :

Let me get back to you when I reach home.

Thanks.

Hock Leong

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Reply to Snsri

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 02 Apr 2009

Hi Sunsri

When I input your details into Jagannatha Hora, I get all the planets' house positions shifted backwards (anticlockwise) 1 house.

Need any adjustment on the timing? Eg. The timing must be adjusted to that based on the time zone of Madurai.

Alternatively you can give me the time zone itself eg. based on 78 degrees east, it should be work out to about +5.2 East Greenwich Mean Time but I want to check to be sure before I further input.

Thanks.

Hock Leong

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Reply to Sunsri

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 03 Apr 2009

Hi Sunsri

There is yet a third alternative which is for me to adjust the timing in my software until the planets fit into the position of the houses you described. This option is only feasbile if for example, you have given the person a chart reading before or you know the person intimately well and you have a little knowledge about astrology.

Thanks.

Hock Leong
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Post by nrjtrvd » 03 Apr 2009

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Post by sunsri » 03 Apr 2009

Hi Hock Leong,

I know this person very well. I know a little astrology and hence was looking. I will also send you a PM.

Thanks again for your feedback,
Sunsri

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Reply to Sunsri

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 04 Apr 2009

Hi Sunsri

Will get back to you next Sunday. I am quite tied up this week.

Thanks.

Hock Leong

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Some Clarifications

Post by Khoo Hock Leong » 06 Apr 2009

Hi

This post is on the 2nd-12th House relationship of planets.

Earlier on I had a post on Saturn effects on House (A) ad House (A+1) and since the subject of Saturn being the planet in House (A), the 12th house to House (A+1), was brought up, the two topics became integrated.

For the effects of Saturn on House (A) and House (A+1), I would like to clarify two points.

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(1) Does it depend on th signs on House (A) and House (A+1)?

In my earlier blog on the topic on the same matter (where I talked about Saturn affecting the house it is in and the next house), I said this is irregardless of sign.

For the basic principle, yes, sign does not matter.

However, in my reply to Nrjtrvd for the analysis, I talked about Cancer on House (A+1) and Saturn being in Gemini in House (A).

(a) Saturn in Gemini means that Saturn rules the 7th House of Business. But for this we are talking outside the context of the principle. We are now analysing the whole chart. However, when discussing any principle, we do analyse the impact from other areas of the chart. This is unavoidable in astrology.

(b) In the context of the principle, the sign on House (A+1) is useful in detemining whether it is a enemy or friend to Saturn. This would determine whether Saturn in House (A) has a more deleterious effect or not on House (A+1) depending whether Saturn is an enemy or friend respectively.

The sign on House (A) on the other hand is useful for determining Saturn's strength and of course its degree of beneficial or hamful effect on House (A).

I also talked about Saturn being Marana Karaka Stantha in House (A) and about Saturn's Paya in a particular house with reference to Lagna.

So this principle of Saturn having bad effects on House (A) and House (A+1) is actually a COMBINATION of different simple principles including talking about the nature of Saturn itself (it is a planet of a lower caste), using an arbitrary house (House A) as a reference Lagna point (the principle of juggling the houses to get more meaning), the signficator of a House (in this case Saturn in House (A) with reference to House (A+1)) using its Argala Houses moe strongly etc.

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(2) I also told Nrjtrvd that for the question that was brought up on Saturn in Gemini, at first I mentioned that Saturn has BOTH GOOD effects on House (A) and House (A+1). For Dusthana Houses with reference to Lagna (House (A+1) for the case brought up by Nrjtrvd, Saturn is in 11th), I usually take it as having good effects if its effects can be annulled. Thus under this principle when Saturn is in House (A), it actually is the 12th to House (A+1) (the 12th House to Lagna) and it effectively neutralises it (double negative).

That is why when Nrjtrvd wanted clarification whether would the person do better in spiritual or material terms I said material, even though earlier on I said that Saturn has BOTH GOOD effects on House (A) and House (A+1).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope the above clarifies.

Thanks.

Hock Leong

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Re: The 2nd-12th House Relationship : Something to Think Abo

Post by sachinder » 24 Jul 2013

respected khoo sir
in foll chart Saturn as lord of lagna is in 2nd house in pisces and Jupiter is in 12th retro + deb
what can we say about it
please throw some light
5 aug 1997
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jagadhri
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Re: The 2nd-12th House Relationship : Something to Think About

Post by vind71 » 16 Nov 2018

Dear Khoo Hock Leong
My son DOB 18Feb2001, 11.10 AM, Pune with Aries ascendant has an exchange yoga of 2nd & 12th lords. Astrologers say this is a doomed combination. Can you please some lights on this.

Regds

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