Ascendant as start of first house.

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coffeeday

Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by coffeeday » 06 Sep 2018

ishtakala means the time destined / fixed.



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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by SweetV » 06 Sep 2018

Oh :lol: It is Ishtakaala, I that it is art. Anyway not relevant to the context. But I thought like that :mrgreen:

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 06 Sep 2018

This discussion will remain inconclusive for the following reasons:

1. By definition, the longitude of the point on the ecliptic just becoming visible in the observer’s Eastern Horizon(at the place of birth) at the time of birth denotes the Lagna. The corresponding point for the 7th house has not been defined anywhere !!

2. Since the earth rotates on its axis once in 24 hrs, it is ASSUMED that the corresponding 7th house point is 180 degrees apart. Mathematically, this is NOT a correct assumption since the point where the eastern horizon cuts the equator 12 hrs later will be dependent on the latitude of the place as well.

3. Visibility of a house has nothing to do with the Sun. It refers to the parts which have already risen from the horizon at the time and place of birth and is taken till the deemed point 12 hours later as mentioned in para 2 above. As such, all longitudes before the Lagna point for half the (South Indian representation) chart going anticlockwise are to be treated as being in the visible range since they would all be above the horizon of the place of birth. The remaining are to be treated as yet to rise and hence are invisible.

4. This Lagna point may fall anywhere in a sign. When the Sign containing Lagna is considered as the 1st house, the part from the start of that sign till the Lagna longitude will fall in the visible part and the rest will be invisible. In the bhava chart, the Lagna is assumed to be the mid point of the bhava. In such a case, half the bhava would be visible and half would be invisible.

In actual practice, the mathematical logic is NOT strictly adhered to. The sign containing the Lagna is termed as the 1st house. Houses 12 to 7 are considered as visible houses and the rest as invisible. As stated by @majestik108 “To sum up, if you follow Parashari astrology, the ascendant begins when the rasi begins. Period.”

Very succinctly put !!!

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by SweetV » 21 Sep 2018

Dear tylorechandra, much appreciated for the explanation from your part!... May I please know what is mean by period? I mean what does it contextually mean over here in your last sentence of the previous post, just before very succinctly put.

Now how do you see if a horoscope demands birth time rectification in a case where the Ascendant is just transiting between two zodiacs?... let's say if Ascendant degree is at 29° 59' 30" (random) in Leo, now it is about to transit Virgo. So, how do we decide Ascendant. Is it that if we know the person's character, let's say if fiery nature dominates, Ascendant sign is in Leo. Isn't it?!
नमः शिवाय!

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 21 Sep 2018

1. In english language usage when the ‘period’ appears as a single last word, it means an emphasis on the full stop preceding it. In other words, the matter is closed from the side of the writer and the writer does not want a continuation of arguments.

2. As far as the need for birth time rectification is concerned, there may be various reasons. Merely because the calculated longitude of Lagna appears at the beginning or ending of a sign, there is no reason to doubt the birth time. Many theories of birth time rectification exist and literature will also become available if you search for it. After all, it is also possible for a time rectified Lagna to occupy the beginning or ending of a sign !!!

3. For the example given by you, the ascendant will be Leo. Determining the nature of a person is a matter of correct interpretation of the chart. While the chart preparation can be self taught and the verses of the sages can be memorised, proper application of the content of the verses has to be learnt only under the guidance of a Guru. It is not possible to directly relate a dominating fiery nature of an individual to the Leo ascendant in all cases.

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by SweetV » 21 Sep 2018

Dear Tylorechandra, thanks! :)... With your words & by Majestic108 I'm cleared why the Ascendant begins when Raashi begins. But not Bhaava Madhya & also starting of the 1st house. Initially I've believed & made an understanding to myself that Ascendant degree should be considered as Bhavva Madhya, but I've discarded this point too, because it didn't suit in my Guru's chart... I myself have Jupiter Sun conjunction in Sagittarius in Ascendant, if I only have this conjunction my Guru should definitely have powerful combination since he influenced me a lot in my life. Then I used Ascendant as middle of 1st house in his case but it didn't suit. He has the same Jupiter Sun conjunction but in Leo in Ascendant (my 9th house). Now it suited with life events.

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 20 Oct 2018

We'll come back to the ascendant & house discussion in a bit, but for now, I'd like to hear some opinions on the following translated verses from Chapter 18 in BPHS

22. TIME OF MARRIAGE. If Yuvati Lord is in a benefic’s Bhava (or in Dharm, as Subha Rāśi so means), while Śukr is exalted, or is in own Rāśi, the native will marry at the age of 5, or 9.

23. If Sūrya is in Yuvati, while his dispositor is yuti with Śukr, there will be marriage at 7th, or 11th year of age.

24. Śukr in Dhan, while Yuvati Lord is in Labh will give marriage at the age of 10, or 16.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

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ChandraLagna

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 21 Oct 2018

Under the changed circumstances, the above can't be applied literally. Can, however, be utilized for knowing whether early or late marriage.

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 22 Oct 2018

majestik108 wrote:
03 Sep 2018

When such thoughts arise, it's helpful to remember the primary difference between usual vyavaharika forms of knowledge (like science) and anything that is a Vedanga, and that is the fact that these were from Rishis and hence directly from Brahma. If there is a perceived 'error' in the system (assuming it is an authentic translation/source), the first step is to question one's own understanding rather than question the Rishis. This solves most supposed 'contradictions' even before they arise.
TKC, we both know that the verses quoted are not seen in reality.

I quoted the verses to bring into attention & clear if possible the "supposed contradictions" and how statements "..from Rishis and hence directly from Brahma" are not followed in Bharata Varsha today. If that member has "solved" this contradiction, it'd be helpful for everyone to see the solution.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

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ChandraLagna

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 22 Oct 2018

:D

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 04 Dec 2018

tylorechandra wrote:
06 Sep 2018
As stated by @majestik108 “To sum up, if you follow Parashari astrology, the ascendant begins when the rasi begins. Period.”

Very succinctly put !!!

TKC
The above statement has several ramifications, the most obvious one being that anyone born in a two hour window has the same ascendant which is where the rasi begins, and thus the first house for all born in the two hour window remains the same. The lagna may fall in different amsas, but if we focus only on Rasi chart for this discussion, the conclusion above is straightforward & inescapable.

Any reader of BHPS will not fail to notice strong emphasis on degree or sphuta throughout the text for calculation of various strengths, aspects etc and one has to think how can such a important consideration as Ascendant degree be practically discarded & just the sign where it falls in is sufficient.

Is there any reference that can be provided where BPHS clearly advises reader that ascendant begins where Rasi begins?
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 04 Dec 2018

Sloka 6 Ch.3 provides a glimpse.

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by murthys68 » 05 Dec 2018

I'm so sorry! There is a small spelling mistake :P in the above śloka while writing:
राशीनामुदयो लग्नम् तद्वशावेव​ जन्मिनाम्।
It is तद्वशावेव but not तद्वशविव! :x
For the people who doesn't know the script let me write it in IAST format:
Rāśināmudayo lagnam tadvaśāveva janminām।

This śloka has confirmed... But I've a doubt, I've heard that when a Graha placed in Bhāva sandhi, its energy will be less, now by this what does it mean? Is it the entire energy? If not which energy is considered weak?
Let's take an example when a Graha is at initial degree, say Sun in Leo in Makha-1 for Leo Ascendant & the what happens when the same Sun is at the end of that Bhāva / Rāśi for the same Ascendant?
Will Sun become weak? If So, how much weak that is?
So, in that case Vargottama Ātmakārakās will not do well when they are in Sagittarius, Pisces, Gemini & Virgo?

It would also be good that if a K.P. follower could comment because the above śloka will be challenging for them, I'm concerned to this because there are few folks who still follow Kṛṣṇamūrti Paddhati & give readings, isn't that considered bad?! Finally, readers will be misguided with Kṛṣṇamūrti Paddhati? But people are here to get guidance through Jyotiṣam but not misguidance, Thus one needs to abstain in using Kṛṣṇamūrti Paddhati...
There is also a well known article which was recommended by an Astrologer from our forum itself, the article is:
Does Kṛṣṇamūrti Paddhati Rest On a Mistake by T.R. Raghunāth
One could download that article from the following link:
http://fliphtml5.com/qifi/hwtx/basic

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 05 Dec 2018

Murthy68 cum Vivek Surya- I have been ignoring your posts for a while hoping better sense will prevail. Pl post only after you understand the topic at hand and not let loose a volley of hollow words. I removed your previous post which brought in your own chart. That is not up for discussion. Your question in the above post regarding strength- go refer to any text on how much strong or weak a graha becomes when it is placed in a sign/house.

As is your habit, you end up bashing KP - pl do not comment about something you do not understand nor make an attempt to.

Ascendant as start as first house is not restricted to KP analysis, whatever is being discussed here is independent of that Paddathi.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 05 Dec 2018

Chapter 3, verse 6:


The first line of the verse
Rashinam - of all the Rashis ( described in previous verses)
Udayo lagnam ( where lagna rises)
tadvashadev - there only lives/is present
janminam - birth sign ( to be read with rashinam above - i.e. janminam rashinam)

Of all the signs, the birth one is where the lagna rises.

Second line talks of good/bad phala arising out of grahas/planets etc.

This verse does not use the word "bhava". I hope the readers very carefully notice that throughout the text, BPHS uses bhava to mean house. For example the house descriptions are all described as tanu bhava, dhan bhava etc. Where the sign is needed to be referred to, the text uses the term rasi.

In this verse, there is nothing to indicate that the first bhava is the first rasi, it just talks about the rising rasi. Rising sign can be Mesha, but does not mean that entire Mesha is first house. Please provide any reference that does so.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 05 Dec 2018

I have not seen any verse describing a house as different from a Rasi in the version of BPHS that I have. The word house essentially starts from the ch.11. In ch.24, the Bhava is spoken of. No description of either is given anywhere.

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 05 Dec 2018

You are right, chapter 11 is where the description of bhavas starts with tanu bhava.

As posted above, the referred Ch 3, verse 6 does not say that all of the rising sign is first house.

Before we proceed, can we see any verse which definitively states that a Rasi is same as bhava? Let us explore any confirming evidence before we go to dis-confirming evidence.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by Crystalpages » 05 Dec 2018

ChandraLagna wrote:
05 Dec 2018
You are right, chapter 11 is where the description of bhavas starts with tanu bhava.

As posted above, the referred Ch 3, verse 6 does not say that all of the rising sign is first house.

Before we proceed, can we see any verse which definitively states that a Rasi is same as bhava? Let us explore any confirming evidence before we go to dis-confirming evidence.
From what I have gathered from B.P.H.S. (I have read through a few versions in hindi, english, sanskrit-hindi, I have found that these included a segment that described the sripati paddhati of house divisions, which happens to be similar to what our tropical fellow-astrologers dub as the Porphyrii house division. So obviously, unequal house division systems were not unknown to or entirely ignored by ancient Indian Astrologers-Sages. Unlike tropical astrologers, though, they predominantly did not prefer the rising degree as the beginning of the house, although in modern times some astrologers have begun following that trend and even insisting that tropical zodiac should be utilized for Jyotish! The mainstream of Jyotishis, however do not immediately wish to fix what is not broken!

Personally, I have generally followed the whole sign-house system. Rashi or whole sign (sidereal...!) are the 12 sectors in the sky, as we perceive those from geocentric (geotopical for the picky!) perspective. Any of these 12 can serve as bhavas, which refer to individual charts. 12 possible orientation points, at the primary level of examination. So, while Aries is always Tanu in Kala-purusha's chart, it may assume any of the 12 specified roles (as bhava) in individual charts of nativities. This is where I suggest all jyotishis should begin and as experience accumulates, one can then expand their understanding through cautious experimentation, exploration, research, etc.
Rohiniranjan

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 05 Dec 2018

There is only a mention of Sripathi Paddhati in the write up about ch.4 in the preface. It is mentioned that originally Parashara advocated this system.(Current recommendation is not known??). No other description of houses or bhavas seem to exist.

The usage of 'Ascendant lord', '3rd lord' etc in various chapters (including ch.24 where 'Bhava' is used) is suggestive ot the alignment of Rasi and Bhava since, if Bhava contains two Rasis, its lord is not fully defined.

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 05 Dec 2018

@Crystalpages - You are ahead of me here :D I am not even going to unequal or equal houses since I believe that can be a separate topic with discussion around merits and demerits and what Parashara or any of the later authors really meant for later generations to understand and follow.

I am still at the beginning, so to say, the ascendant! I was hoping that since one is able to succinctly declare that the ascendant begins when the Rasi begins, there must be clear unequivocal statement to that effect in BPHS, I have not yet been shown any such verse.

@ TKC: So there is no specific verse which says rasi is same as bhava, and the reader is making this equivalence, since there is no definition of bhava lord one is able to read in the text, correct? Can I take it now that there is no statement which says "the ascendant begins when the rasi begins"? If there is, pl let us know :)
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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by murthys68 » 05 Dec 2018

Then dear CL Ji, is there any verse in BPHS saying that a Bhāva can contain 2 Rāśis? You've not been shown any verse in BPHS, true! But could you please show any verse that support that a Bhāva can have 2 Rāśis?

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 05 Dec 2018

There is the usage of the Bhava Madhya in Ch.4 relating to Nisheka Lagna. Here the Asc. and other cusps are to be treated as Bhava Madhya. But the accompanying chart shows the Bhavas aligned with Rasis with the Rasi containing the Asc. cusp as the 1st Bhava. So the confusion continues.

I believe that the Rasi chart is constructed using the Rasis. The Bhava chart is only a tool for correct prediction in cases where the planetary positions change in the bhava chart constructed in accordance with any system (Even in such cases, the planet continues to occupy its original Rasi only, but a different bhava). In fact all the current systems in use e.g the Parashari, Krishnamurthy paddati, some Nakshatra Nadi and other Nadi systems may use different methods for chart preparations. Even the finer divisions of nakshatras in KP (for finding the sub lord, sub sub etc) are different from the four padas proposed by Parashara. These are new concepts and the new generation is coming up with theories which seem to work well in practice even though they do not fit the "Parashari model" always.

Under the above stated conditions, there is nothing wrong if the Bhava is aligned with the Rasi for general purposes. Of course, if a specific verse stating so is insisted upon, I would say that I didn't find the same. On the other hand, there is no verse stating otherwise too !!!!

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by ChandraLagna » 06 Dec 2018

Para 1: (NIsheka Lagna)

BPHS in original does not have any example chart, so any accompanying chart is by the translator and can be safely ignored if it is not in consonance with the stated text. Let us read and understand the text as it appears in BPHS without any bias from the translator. The original Sanskrit text simply states..

"lagna-bhagya-antaram " which means the difference between Lagna and Bhagya,( i.e. 9th ) and from previous chapters and verses we know Lagna refers to the rising degree. This verse does not refer to the beginning of the lagna-rashi and beginning of bhagya-rashi, nor does it say anything about bhava-madhya. These are interpretations of the translator. Calculations using the longitudinal difference between two cusps hints at unequal houses. But we digress as this is not the main point we want to discuss here.

Para 2: (KP and modern concepts) I am not even debating here the efficacy of new concepts like KP and how they work, but merely trying to see whether or not the point of Rasi=house is held by BPHS text or not.

Para 3:

Current Statement:
tylorechandra wrote:
05 Dec 2018
Under the above stated conditions, there is nothing wrong if the Bhava is aligned with the Rasi for general purposes.

TKC
Past statement:
tylorechandra wrote:
06 Sep 2018
As stated by @majestik108 “To sum up, if you follow Parashari astrology, the ascendant begins when the rasi begins. Period.”
Very succinctly put !!!
TKC
The past statement was very unequivocal and brooked no counterview whereas now the statement is far more defensive :). It appears that a statement was made and ascribed to Parashara whereas there is no such view expressed in BPHS.

Finally,
tylorechandra wrote:
05 Dec 2018
Of course, if a specific verse stating so is insisted upon, I would say that I didn't find the same.
TKC
Thank you for gracefully accepting this point as this is important not just for us discussing on this thread but for all current and future members of this forum to realize that the widely held belief of one rasi is one house does not have any basis in BPHS.
--भज गोविन्दं... भज गोविन्दं...गोविन्दं भज, मूढमते --

With Regards,
ChandraLagna

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by tylorechandra » 06 Dec 2018

It also clarifies that BPHS does not state otherwise, namely, that Rasi and Bhava are different !!

TKC

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Re: Ascendant as start of first house.

Post by murthys68 » 06 Dec 2018

Yes & tylorechandra Ji as stated, it is very important to note that there is no where Mahaṛṣi has stated that a Bhāva can contain 2 Rāśis! Thus, taking something which ancient seers hasn't mentioned is not a proper conclusion. Thus, it is very obvious to consider whole Rāśi as a Bhāva if not, what else one would take at all? Defining lordship will be crucial in that case

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